Florida stand your ground. Dont play stupid games

[Pyro]

Already said well, but I've always heard it stressed when carrying, be the de-escalation unless you have no other options. From the point the younger man slammed the older man .. I don't know what was / wasn't said ..
Before that point honestly the older man should have engaged the lady. Where I'm from we treat women better .. even if she is wrong.

 

[HoughMade]

The more I watch it, the longer the pause between the shove and the shot feels. Such a long time. I'm quite certain that this same scenario happened in Indiana the shooter would be facing serious charges. As he should.

Agreed. It not only seems long, but it's obvious that he was backing away.

What struck me about this the protracted amount of time the decrepit 47 year old was yelling at the woman in the car. I say "yelling" without sound because you can see that just about everyone who goes in an out it looking at him. A normal speaking tone doesn't draw those eyes so quickly. Also, look how close he is to the driver's side of the car. I'm not calling the shove "defense of others", but he started several feet away and got to one arm's length away.

If any of us came out of the store and saw this guy leaning over the window yelling at our girl or spouse, do you think you would calmly walk up and ask: "I say, good chap, would you mind taking a step back so that we may converse peacefully for a moment"? I also bet the shover was pretty surprised the guy folded to the ground like a cheap deck chair. Not defending the shove, but geez.

 

[dusty88]

To me, most of the arguing is coming from folks who want to take a gray area and make it black or white. From the legal standpoint, the only real debate here is whether the shooter had time to change his mind when the shover backed up.

To claim that the shooter wasn't seriously injured is another unknown. I've fallen on the rocks or cement and it hurts like crazy. To be shoved down like that? it would depend what hit first etc but it's a scary threat from someone stronger than you. It is NOT the same as guessing what any random person might do later. You are at the moment facing someone who just used violence against you and (until the gun was drawn) was standing over him.

There is also no need to attempt to equate legal blame with the failure to avoid a problem.

Could the shooter have avoided this entire thing? yes
Could the girlfriend have avoided this entire thing? yes (twice actually because she could have said "my bad" and backed out of the parking space)
Could the boyfriend have avoided this entire thing? yes

From the legal standpoint, the shooter is a defendant first. and in that regard he was the victim of a physical assault and "maybe" needed to shoot to defend himself. If he "probably, reasonably" needed to shoot, then he's not guilty of a crime.

He's guilty of stupid behavior, as are these other people and he's probably liable in civil suit for his part in it, amiright?

 

[Pyro]

The more I watch it, the longer the pause between the shove and the shot feels. Such a long time. I'm quite certain that this same scenario happened in Indiana the shooter would be facing serious charges. As he should.

Ok I gotta admit looking at this video 3 things stand out that didn't to me with the short.
1. There was a lot of spaces in front of the store closer to the door that were empty when she was sitting in the HC spot.
2. He actually seems to be having a civil conversation with her before he is shoved.
3. .. The guy has already stepped back and appears to be de-escalating, even turning away when he shoots .... I get the "already determined to fire" piece but it really looks like a retaliation kill not a defensive.

I'm done, wasn't there, and pray I never am.

 

[rhino]

To me, most of the arguing is coming from folks who want to take a gray area and make it black or white. From the legal standpoint, the only real debate here is whether the shooter had time to change his mind when the shover backed up.

To claim that the shooter wasn't seriously injured is another unknown. I've fallen on the rocks or cement and it hurts like crazy. To be shoved down like that? it would depend what hit first etc but it's a scary threat from someone stronger than you. It is NOT the same as guessing what any random person might do later. You are at the moment facing someone who just used violence against you and (until the gun was drawn) was standing over him.

There is also no need to attempt to equate legal blame with the failure to avoid a problem.

Could the shooter have avoided this entire thing? yes
Could the girlfriend have avoided this entire thing? yes (twice actually because she could have said "my bad" and backed out of the parking space)
Could the boyfriend have avoided this entire thing? yes

From the legal standpoint, the shooter is a defendant first. and in that regard he was the victim of a physical assault and "maybe" needed to shoot to defend himself. If he "probably, reasonably" needed to shoot, then he's not guilty of a crime.

He's guilty of stupid behavior, as are these other people and he's probably liable in civil suit for his part in it, amiright?

Agreed.

Wait! Did I just echo????!!

 

[JettaKnight]

I had an incident last night that was similar...

A homeowner was blocking the sidewalk (which is illegal, just like abusing HC parking), I walked up to him in his driveway, shook his hand and politely asked him to move his truck.

Then he punched me and I shot him.

 

[dusty88]

Ok I gotta admit looking at this video 3 things stand out that didn't to me with the short.
1. There was a lot of spaces in front of the store closer to the door that were empty when she was sitting in the HC spot.

yes and how quickly they fill illustrates one reason for the need for handicappped spaces to be left open

2. He actually seems to be having a civil conversation with her before he is shoved.

Yes it does look different with this more clear video. The way he is gesturing he might be explaining (for example) that one thing different about handicapped spaces is that they are next to a slope for someone to get a wheelchair or walker up to the door.

However, then I wonder if it got a little more heated. Because one of the people entering the store stops to look. That makes me speculate maybe he was raising his voice or something

3. .. The guy has already stepped back and appears to be de-escalating, even turning away when he shoots .... I get the "already determined to fire" piece but it really looks like a retaliation kill not a defensive.

It does look more like 2 full sec compared to the 1.5 I thought I saw on the smaller video. I still think it's a huge stretch to call it "retaliation". Maybe fear, maybe trigger finger accidental response, maybe could be ruled illegal, but I don't see any reason to think of this as intentional retaliation. That's inserting a lot of unrealistic hindsight.

I'm done, wasn't there, and pray I never am.

Yes, certainly a situation we can all hope to avoid. The other reality is though that this could have been something more dire than an illegal parking. It could have been one of those moments where you aren't sure if someone needs help and you start askking questions. And there you are....

There was a guy stabbed in the little town of New Ross 2 days ago. Apparently someone waved down a methhead for driving wrecklessly. Waver and methhead argue. Methhead chases waver and fights with him. Standerby tries to break up fight and gets stabbed by methhead. We can say the "waver" should have called the police. But the guy standing by understandably didn't want to wait 20 min for the sheriff to prevent someone from being hurt. So what if that was us? If methhead pulls knife on you, you are starting to shoot and he backs up while you are in process?

 

[HoughMade]

I had an incident last night that was similar...

A homeowner was blocking the sidewalk (which is illegal, just like abusing HC parking), I walked up to him in his driveway, shook his hand and politely asked him to move his truck.

Then he punched me and I shot him.

I'm gonna need some more information....demographic information before I decide whose side to be on. Let's start with your age and level of decrepitness. Is there a video?

 

[rhino]

I'm gonna need some more information....demographic information before I decide whose side to be on. Let's start with your age and level of decrepitness. Is there a video?

Do you actually believe that?

 

[Route 45]

I'm gonna need some more information....demographic information before I decide whose side to be on. Let's start with your age and level of decrepitness. Is there a video?

Let's make it Mike Tyson vs. Stephen Hawking, just like in the Florida incident.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

I’m probably on thin ice, so I’m minding my P’s and Q’s, my only question would be, if this were a cop, would you consider this a justified shoot or a bad shoot? Maybe it’s not a good comparison but if it would end with the cop being charged why should it be any different for a wannabe cop?

 

[rhino]

Let's make it Mike Tyson vs. Stephen Hawking, just like in the Florida incident.

Looked more like Hulk Hogan vs. FDR to me, but I'm not smart.

 

[HoughMade]

Let's make it Mike Tyson vs. Stephen Hawking, just like in the Florida incident.

Honestly, I think the guy who got shot was taller than Mike Tyson and the broken-down 47 year old who rolled up to a parking space closer to the door got out and walked around with no obvious handicap was possibly more disabled that Stephen Hawking.

...but as long as we understand the limitations of the hypotheticals, I'll allow it.

From Reason.com regarding the incident and misinformation and apparent lack of understanding as to the "stand your ground" law:

https://reason.com/archives/2018/07/25/dont-blame-stand-your-ground-for-markeis

 

[dusty88]

I’m probably on thin ice, so I’m minding my P’s and Q’s, my only question would be, if this were a cop, would you consider this a justified shoot or a bad shoot? Maybe it’s not a good comparison but if it would end with the cop being charged why should it be any different for a wannabe cop?

Assuming the guy was foolish enough to push a cop (or maybe doesn't know it was a cop) would it be correct to say that officers are trained in using presentation of their gun to stop or detain people whereas civilians are not?

In any case, a cop can't let someone get the best of him by shoving him down. Cops have had their guns taken away in those situations.

Of course, cops should also be trained in deescalation and should have stayed calm and aware while writing the parker a citation or in speaking to her.

 

[KellyinAvon]

No, no, NO! Yet another example of vigorous disagreements is irrelevant because it does not support the assertion that INGO is an echo chamber. The accusation was already made by people whose accusations are more important than facts and evidence. Therefore, your evidence is inadmissible and INGO returns to its rightful status as echo chamber (for racists).

Are you sure you don't want to talk about Calculus

 

[mmpsteve]

I'll say one thing for him, the shooter certainly was very persistent. Most people who were so inclined to point out to the driver the error of her ways would have pointed it out to her, and then gone on their grumpy way, but not this guy.

Longer video- more context:

[video=youtube;zmftUBst71o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmftUBst71o[/video]

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Assuming the guy was foolish enough to push a cop (or maybe doesn't know it was a cop) would it be correct to say that officers are trained in using presentation of their gun to stop or detain people whereas civilians are not?

In any case, a cop can't let someone get the best of him by shoving him down. Cops have had their guns taken away in those situations.

Of course, cops should also be trained in deescalation and should have stayed calm and aware while writing the parker a citation or in speaking to her.

I 100% agree. But, I’m not asking about the entire situation. I’m just asking if this were a cop, would the shove justify him to use deadly force, or would there be a thread talking about how the cop acted inappropriately?

 

[KellyinAvon]

Agreed.

Wait! Did I just echo????!!

Now cut that out! If I have to come back there I'm bringing the Erlang-C equation.

 

[JettaKnight]

I 100% agree. But, I’m not asking about the entire situation. I’m just asking if this were a cop, would the shove justify him to use deadly force, or would there be a thread talking about how the cop acted inappropriately?

You'd have a lot less accusations that the 47 y.o. cop was decrepit than you do here.


And, as you know, the scales would tip in favor of "good shoot". The dynamics would be completely different in that case.

 

[Route 45]

I 100% agree. But, I’m not asking about the entire situation. I’m just asking if this were a cop, would the shove justify him to use deadly force, or would there be a thread talking about how the cop acted inappropriately?

You cannot begin to make that comparison, because of the totality of the circumstances. A cop has a duty to enforce the law, so it would have been reasonable for him to speak with the woman in the car. If the boyfriend actually came out of the store and pushed a uniformed police officer to the ground, this is much more serious than pushing some random person, as the assailant knows that he is pushing a police officer. There is a reason that crimes against police officers are generally enhanced offenses. The idea is that the attack is against not only the cop, but against society and law and order.

This speaks to the mindset of the attacker. Is it reasonable to think that the mindset of someone who attacks a uniformed police officer may be more dangerous than someone who pushes a random stranger away to protect his girlfriend and child? I would say yes. That being said, a police officer will probably still not shoot in this situation if he draws and the perp backs up. Cops go hand to hand all the time. They use retention holsters. They have other defensive tools at their disposal.

Despite your scenario being unlikely, I think that a cop shooting an unarmed man who is backing away would not play well, either. Maybe worse, since the cop should be better trained.