Fanatical religious terrorist incident Colorado Springs.

[Roadie]

Cheeseburgers suck!

*BANNED*

 

[2A_Tom]

I kinda get the same feeling about my last post, but anyway, I'm sorry. I missed post #753. Sometimes in posting and coming back to the thread I shouldn't rely on "view first unread" as much as I do because I tend to miss a lot of posts.




I have no idea what you're asking.



Paul, I'll be blunt here. Since INGO has allowed religious discussion, you've not just used language like "absurd". You've demonstrated a sort of contempt for "believers". So, I'll just ask straight up, do you have contempt for Christians? If so, I think that it's reasonable to point out some dissonance between thinking you're a 6 and behaving more like I would think a 7 would behave. Again I ask, why would someone who believes they can't know for certain, but assumes there is no god, use rhetoric like delusional, fantasy, fairy tales, unicorns, mythical, absurd, towards people who believe in god?

This is my take. I have always wondered why some who do not believe in God get their hackles up over "nothing".

It seems (and I am absolutely NOT saying PaulF is a liberal) liberals are not secure enough in their unbelief to be confronted by the possibility they could be wrong. So they have to say that Moses is holding the Bill of Rights in the SCOTUS chamber, fire coaches who have the audacity to pray with their team, expel kids that say god bless you in class and etc.

 

[churchmouse]

Cheeseburgers suck!

Thats pretty good.
Of course you see it got you banned.

 

[Jludo]

This is my take. I have always wondered why some who do not believe in God get their hackles up over "nothing".

I think it's that 'nothing' has such a major impact on our lives and our politics. Gay rights, birth control, evolution, young earth, abortion etc. are contentious issues and the major driving force behind them is this 'nothing' we shouldn't get our hackles up over.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Steve, that isn't what I got from your post.

Do I think your beliefs are just as absurd and unfounded as his? Yes, because you both claim to be Christian, and I find the basic tenets of Christianity to be absurd.

Do I think that you arrived at your conclusions in the same manner as him? No. He's insane. He killed people.

That doesn't change the fact that if your god doesn't exist your religious beliefs are based in fantasy...just like his.

If your god does exist then I'm wrong. Your beliefs are well-founded, and he is still an insane killer.

Do you believe that one must be insane to commit murder?

 

[BugI02]

I apologize, I forget if I'm not attacking islam my rhetoric is inflammatory and insulting.

Posted for review: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-political-discussion/9928-how-behave-public.html

 

[BugI02]

I stated that I put myself at a 6 on Dawkins' scale, not a seven.

There is a difference (in my mind, at least) between "maligning people of faith" and pointing out the absurdities in the tenets of that person's beliefs. Am I wrong?

I have repeatedly stated that I could be wrong, that I am open to discussion, that I am not trying to attack anyone personally, that I respect other people's rights to practice their religions despite what I think about it...what am I doing wrong here? I'm starting to feel like I'm taking crazy pills here...

Religion is a contentious issue...I feel like I have been quite reasonable in my attempts to discuss my positions.

Am I just too close to this to see how much of a dick I'm being?

Yes

 

[BugI02]

I kinda get the same feeling about my last post, but anyway, I'm sorry. I missed post #753. Sometimes in posting and coming back to the thread I shouldn't rely on "view first unread" as much as I do because I tend to miss a lot of posts.




I have no idea what you're asking.



Paul, I'll be blunt here. Since INGO has allowed religious discussion, you've not just used language like "absurd". You've demonstrated a sort of contempt for "believers". So, I'll just ask straight up, do you have contempt for Christians? If so, I think that it's reasonable to point out some dissonance between thinking you're a 6 and behaving more like I would think a 7 would behave. Again I ask, why would someone who believes they can't know for certain, but assumes there is no god, use rhetoric like delusional, fantasy, fairy tales, unicorns, mythical, absurd, towards people who believe in god?

Exactly what was troubling me about this.

 

[jamil]

I think it's that 'nothing' has such a major impact on our lives and our politics. Gay rights, birth control, evolution, young earth, abortion etc. are contentious issues and the major driving force behind them is this 'nothing' we shouldn't get our hackles up over.

Many atheists believe in socialism. Not much can affect an individual's life more than a collectivist mentality. Regardless of your ideology or religion, it's not my business until you try to practice your beliefs on me.

Gay rights? Don't care what people do behind closed doors. Evolution? Don't care what you believe about origins. Young earth? Don't care. Birth control? Don't care as long as you pay for it. Abortion? Yeah, I'm philosophically against it but I don't favor overturning RvW other than to correct the collateral damage activist black robes did to the constitution with that ruling.

 

[PaulF]

Honest Q: Which part of the thread are you referring to that's important to you? understanding those who kill in the name of religion, or being right that there is no God? If the latter, why is that important to you?

-rvb

Gather too many people with a similar set of opinions together into a space unchallenged and their opinions will start to become "fact" in that space. On INGO Theism is often treated as fact, when the question is really far from settled. It is important to me to be able to provide a foil to this.

This is my take. I have always wondered why some who do not believe in God get their hackles up over "nothing".

It seems (and I am absolutely NOT saying PaulF is a liberal) liberals are not secure enough in their unbelief to be confronted by the possibility they could be wrong. So they have to say that Moses is holding the Bill of Rights in the SCOTUS chamber, fire coaches who have the audacity to pray with their team, expel kids that say god bless you in class and etc.

I hold some very liberal views. Proudly.

I don't know if I am a liberal, I certainly don't see myself in the people claiming to be "Liberals" on the national stage. The same is true for me when it comes to the Conservatives...nobody speaks for me, so you guys have to put up with me doing it for myself.

To your point:

It isn't "nothing". Take your football team example. You write "pray together", and that sounds great. You assume that every one of those student wants to pray to that coach's god. What happens when one person chooses not to pray in that situation? I can tell you from experience...you don't get to play.

Pray to a god you don't believe in...or go home. That isn't nothing, especially to a kid.

If someone wants to pray, no one can stop them. If someone doesn't want to pray, no one should be able to hold that against them.

As far as being wrong...go through this thread alone and count how many times I have stated, in concrete terms, that I might be wrong. Please!

Now, count how many of the theists in this thread will even allude to the idea that they could be wrong.

I would say that there is plenty of this very human failure to go around.

Do you believe that one must be insane to commit murder?

No. I think sane people commit murder all the time. But not that guy, I think he's nuts.

Exactly what was troubling me about this.

I posted upthread that I'll try to jamilify. I'm trying.

 

[Jludo]

Many atheists believe in socialism. Not much can affect an individual's life more than a collectivist mentality. Regardless of your ideology or religion, it's not my business until you try to practice your beliefs on me.

Gay rights? Don't care what people do behind closed doors. Evolution? Don't care what you believe about origins. Young earth? Don't care. Birth control? Don't care as long as you pay for it. Abortion? Yeah, I'm philosophically against it but I don't favor overturning RvW other than to correct the collateral damage activist black robes did to the constitution with that ruling.

Was anyone accusing you of having the wrong attitude?
If atheist and religious alike held the same beliefs it'd be a wonderful world.

 

[Jludo]

Posted for review: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-political-discussion/9928-how-behave-public.html

You don't see any sort of double standard between how we treat Islam and how we treat Christianity on this forum?

 

[IndyDave1776]

You don't see any sort of double standard between how we treat Islam and how we treat Christianity on this forum?

Not at all. If the Bible and/or the teaching and example of Christ commanded the extermination of unbelievers, I would not subscribe to that system of belief and would be just as harsh on it as I am on Islam by virtue of the fact that its book and the teaching and example of its prophet DO call for my extermination by virtue of my nonbelief in that system of belief.

I will grant you that religion can be a lot like Linux in that a person can take a basic idea and form his own just-right-for-him system out of it, with actual mileage varying on a case by case basis, but for the purpose at hand the only reasonable way to evaluate a religion is by the contents of its book(s) and the teaching and example of its founder as polling every individual believer is not practical, and this is not Microsoft where you take it Bill's way or you do without.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Many atheists believe in socialism. Not much can affect an individual's life more than a collectivist mentality. Regardless of your ideology or religion, it's not my business until you try to practice your beliefs on me.

Gay rights? Don't care what people do behind closed doors. Evolution? Don't care what you believe about origins. Young earth? Don't care. Birth control? Don't care as long as you pay for it. Abortion? Yeah, I'm philosophically against it but I don't favor overturning RvW other than to correct the collateral damage activist black robes did to the constitution with that ruling.

I have to split the difference here. Gay rights? I don't care who you f**k, but don't expect me to go along with special class privileges on account of it. Evolution? IDGAF if you choose to believe in a theory which has not been definitively proven and in many respects requires more faith than religion. Try shoving down the throats of my children (including nieces, nephews, and assorted other family members), we are going to have a problem. Abortion? Here is the sticking point for me. I simply can't condone murder. At minimum, for the sake of intellectual honesty, I would have to demand that it be treated the same as any other form of murder with all being either illegal or legal across the board, not the picking and choosing that is the product of legal abortion. I agree completely about the judicial activism. I could easily go along with a ruling that it is not the prerogative of the federal government to prohibit, regulate, or guarantee to be available by virtue of no constitutional authority to do so, further bolstered by the Tenth Amendment. RvW rests on a contrived authority and consequently by its nature even more than its specific substance represents a threat to the republic.

 

[oldpink]

Was anyone accusing you of having the wrong attitude?
If atheist and religious alike held the same beliefs it'd be a wonderful world.

IOW, all you religious rubes may only gain salvation once you repudiate your deity and replace it with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Her du her.

 

[jamil]

Was anyone accusing you of having the wrong attitude?
If atheist and religious alike held the same beliefs it'd be a wonderful world.

That wasn't the purpose of my post. The first paragraph was the important part to exemplify that ideology can affect other people in the same way you say religion does. And those of us who aren't religious are not immune from affecting other people with our ideological beliefs. After all, under socialism, I wouldn't exactly have the freedom to opt out.

As for the second paragraph, I've said before that people don't have to care that other people believe something different. I'm trying to exemplify that diverse opinions can live in harmony as long as people don't care that someone else believes something different, and people don't insist that everyone else abide by their beliefs.

I have to split the difference here. Gay rights? I don't care who you f**k, but don't expect me to go along with special class privileges on account of it. Evolution? IDGAF if you choose to believe in a theory which has not been definitively proven and in many respects requires more faith than religion. Try shoving down the throats of my children (including nieces, nephews, and assorted other family members), we are going to have a problem. Abortion? Here is the sticking point for me. I simply can't condone murder. At minimum, for the sake of intellectual honesty, I would have to demand that it be treated the same as any other form of murder with all being either illegal or legal across the board, not the picking and choosing that is the product of legal abortion. I agree completely about the judicial activism. I could easily go along with a ruling that it is not the prerogative of the federal government to prohibit, regulate, or guarantee to be available by virtue of no constitutional authority to do so, further bolstered by the Tenth Amendment. RvW rests on a contrived authority and consequently by its nature even more than its specific substance represents a threat to the republic.

It's as I said above. Don't try to force your unique beliefs on society and diverse people can get along just fine without strife. And I'm not saying go along to get along. I'm saying, please do observe your beliefs, but without imposing them on other people. We have to acknowledge the fact that we now live in a nation that has diverse beliefs. Probably the science classes need to acknowledge this as well, to some extent. But in so doing I can't imagine a science class not teaching science's best guess about how we got here. And given the diversity, even within Christianity, of creation theology, it just not a very sciencey subject. Which version would you have taught anyway? Yours?

And I'm right there with you on creating special classes within society. Allowing the first special class opened yet another doorway to social entropy. There is no practical limit to the classifications social justice warriors can devise. However, if the government is going to sanction the joining of couples for special rights and privileges, it owes equal rights. Even if it opens up a Pandora's box of social classes that want to claim "marriage". The logical conclusion of "equal rights" may be endlessly applied to society's detriment.

Abortion? I've said my peace on that enough. And I really don't want to get the thread going in that direction again.

 

[historian]

Thats pretty good.
Of course you see it got you banned.

Didn't take. I must be immortal like Mbills!

 

[2A_Tom]

Gather too many people with a similar set of opinions together into a space unchallenged and their opinions will start to become "fact" in that space. On INGO Theism is often treated as fact, when the question is really far from settled. It is important to me to provide be able to provide a foil to this.



I hold some very liberal views. Proudly.

I don't know if I am a liberal, I certainly don't see myself in the people claiming to be "Liberals" on the national stage. The same is true for me when it comes to the Conservatives...nobody speaks for me, so you guys have to put up with me doing it for myself.

Liberal is the wrong word, we ara talking semantics, progressive may be better. I am very liberal in my private life. the Bible commends liberalism.

Proverbs 11:25 The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.
Bible liberalism is giving to those in need (out of your own goods/wealth) out of compassion.

Political liberalism/progressivism is Compelling others to do this at gun point.

To your point:

It isn't "nothing". Take your football team example. You write "pray together", and that sounds great. You assume that every one of those student wants to pray to that coach's god. What happens when one person chooses not to pray in that situation? I can tell you from experience...you don't get to play.

Pray to a god you don't believe in...or go home. That isn't nothing, especially to a kid.

If someone wants to pray, no one can stop them. Really? If someone doesn't want to pray, no one should be able to hold that against them.

As far as being wrong...go through this thread alone and count how many times I have stated, in concrete terms, that I might be wrong. Please!

Now, count how many of the theists in this thread will even allude to the idea that they could be wrong.

I would say that there is plenty of this very human failure to go around.

Well the old saying is "If I spend my life in the pursuit of God, His love and His purity and I am wrong I have lost nothing. If a person rejects Gods free gift of love and lives a decent or not decent life and spends the rest of eternity separated from God's love, they have lost all."

You don't see any sort of double standard between how we treat Islam and how we treat Christianity on this forum?

You don't any difference between islam and Christianity? islam demands that you convert or die. whereas Christianity begs you to accept the love of God and ALL of his blessings. Reject the love of God and you will still receive a lot of his blessings in this life, but be separated from His love for all of eternity.

I have to split the difference here. Gay rights? I don't care who you f**k, but don't expect me to go along with special class privileges on account of it. Evolution? IDGAF if you choose to believe in a theory which has not been definitively proven and in many respects requires more faith than religion. Try shoving down the throats of my children (including nieces, nephews, and assorted other family members), we are going to have a problem. Abortion? Here is the sticking point for me. I simply can't condone murder. At minimum, for the sake of intellectual honesty, I would have to demand that it be treated the same as any other form of murder with all being either illegal or legal across the board, not the picking and choosing that is the product of legal abortion. I agree completely about the judicial activism. I could easily go along with a ruling that it is not the prerogative of the federal government to prohibit, regulate, or guarantee to be available by virtue of no constitutional authority to do so, further bolstered by the Tenth Amendment. RvW rests on a contrived authority and consequently by its nature even more than its specific substance represents a threat to the republic.

Tolerance is a Christian principle. I can live next door to you and be kind to you and not condemn you for your life style.
I will be resistant to your trying to push your values on me and mine.

I will say that I am opposed to Murder in all of it's forms, however I am not opposed to killing. Wow! Right?

Ecclesiastes 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A soldier in combat is not guilty of murder.

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man

IOW, all you religious rubes may only gain salvation once you repudiate your deity and replace it with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Her du her.

​Now that is just mean spirited. you should be reported or maybe repped.

 

[indiucky]

Gay rights, birth control, evolution, young earth, abortion etc. are contentious issues and the major driving force behind them is this 'nothing' we shouldn't get our hackles up over.

!. I know of no person, religious or secular that does not think Gays should have the same rights as anyone else...There is a debate as to whether marriage is a "right"...
2. I know of no one, religious or secular, that thinks birth control should not be available..There is debate on whether the Government or an insurance company should be forced to pay for it..
3. I know of no religious person that does not believe in evolution (of some form)...There is much scientific debate about evolution in the Darwinian sense due to recent discoveries in DNA Science, microbiology and the seeming sudden appearance of very complicated life forms during the Cambrian explosion..(which in geologic time was an instant...) My belief that Darwinism should go into the same trash heap as other 19th century failed theories such as Marxism, Freud, etc...Has nothing to do with my belief in God and everything to do with my belief in science..
4. I have met one young earth believer in my life...There is nothing in the bible that states how old the earth is...
5. Abortion...Believing that all human life matters and is precious is hardly just the realm of religious folks....That goes way back...(see the Hippocratic Oath for example) It just doesn't make sense (to many people) to kill an unborn child because the timing may be off...Life sometimes operates outside of our convenience and this debate has more to do with human rights and when they start...I say they begin when life begins and science tells me life begins at conception so science and equal rights for all is where I get my pro life stance from...I do not think the mother has any more rights than her child when it comes to something so universal as life....

So the question may be why do you feel you need to put a religious connotation on what are obviously scientific or philosophical disagreements...I.E. Why does everything have to come down to religion for you????

Many (not all) of the atheists I follow come across as petulant children who have "daddy issues"...Lawrence Krauss is the most hilarious example of this...Sulking in his seat...Wearing a hair style more befitting a man half his age...Sporting Chuck Taylor Converse (lest the young unsophisticated masses he markets his books too not notice he is still "cool") etc...etc...Richard Dawkins calling belief in God a "delusion" is another...Really Dick (to mods nickname of Richard)? So now you are a psychiatrist? You are so smart you can diagnose mental illness and anyone who doesn't agree with you must be mentally ill??? Really????
Grow up guys...Just grow up.....

Compare them to say someone like Penn Gillette, Christopher Hitchens (or closer to home Paulf and Jamil) and you will see what I am talking about...Just as there is a right way to talk about ones opinion there is a God, there is also a right way to talk about an opinion that there is no God...

Both require respect of the other person...The one advice I would give to Atheists is that they maintain an open mind about their Faith....Some of the greatest scientific minds in the world today see no disconnect between their faith and their vocation...To assume that believers somehow don't believe in science is just ignorant, pretentious and annoying...I realize you may have been around young earth folk but to paint a broad brush that every Christian is like that puts you in the same realm of people that blame all Muslims for the actions of Islamic extremists....

I can believe the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God without taking the passage "never suffer a witch to live" to feel like God wants me to attend a Lillith faire Concert looking for Wicca Chicks to build a fire under...Although I must confess that Wicca Chicks, like Biker chicks, have always held a fascination with me....And in my younger days I may have consorted with a witch or two..I couldn't help it...They wore long skirts and spun around when they danced...It was beautiful....Kind of like Apostolic chicks in tie dye.....

Here are a few examples of intellectually honest Atheists....

[video=youtube;6md638smQd8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md638smQd8[/video]

[video=youtube;E9TMwfkDwIY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9TMwfkDwIY[/video]

 

[steveh_131]

I think it's that 'nothing' has such a major impact on our lives and our politics. Gay rights, birth control, evolution, young earth, abortion etc. are contentious issues and the major driving force behind them is this 'nothing' we shouldn't get our hackles up over.

Let's hear some specific examples where Christianity has negatively impacted your life in a political and tangible way. If you're going to claim victim status, I'd like to hear exactly how you were victimized.