Fanatical religious terrorist incident Colorado Springs.

[steveh_131]

Choosing fantasy over reality is the definition of delusion. If your god is real, you may not be delusional...but otherwise, in fact you are.

The distinction between a delusional mentally ill person and a person that practices a religion based on fantasy is that one of those people has a good reason to be delusional.

Is Christianity a delusion? From my perspective, yes...but I am not the final arbiter of these things. I could be wrong.

By this logic, your denial of a God or any life beyond this one is equivalent to a religion - and if you're wrong then you also meet the requirements of delusion.

Then when an atheist goes on a killing spree I could make some comments implying some equivalence between you and him.

Fortunately, I don't subscribe to this. A delusion is an irrational belief, by definition. Two reasonable, rational men can assess the evidence and reach opposing conclusions about the existence of God. That disagreement does not make either one of them delusional unless they've rejected the tangible facts of reality to arrive there.

 

[Roadie]

Choosing fantasy over reality is the definition of delusion. If your god is real, you may not be delusional...but otherwise, in fact you are.

The distinction between a delusional mentally ill person and a person that practices a religion based on fantasy is that one of those people has a good reason to be delusional.

Is Christianity a delusion? From my perspective, yes...but I am not the final arbiter of these things. I could be wrong.

Not quite..

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Pathologically... saying the moon is made of cheese despite proof otherwise IS delusional.
Dogmatic beliefs, are not.

We can prove there is no cheese on the moon, we cannot prove there is, or is not, a God. See the difference?

Now, you can say "I personally think belief in a higher power is delusional", but it is intellectually dishonest to say that belief is the very definition of delusion

 

[Dead Duck]

PaulF -
You still have plenty of time. I'm confident you'll make the right choice.

 

[PaulF]

By this logic, your denial of a God or any life beyond this one is equivalent to a religion - and if you're wrong then you also meet the requirements of delusion.

Maybe, but only if it is a verifiable fact that your god exists. Then my atheism would be delusional. As it stands now, it is not...your god is merely speculation, just like all the other gods man has created over our history.

Then when an atheist goes on a killing spree I could make some comments implying some equivalence between you and him.

Sure, yes you could. It would be escpecially damning if something within his atheist ideology contributed to his violence.

Fortunately, I don't subscribe to this. A delusion is an irrational belief, by definition. Two reasonable, rational men can assess the evidence and reach opposing conclusions about the existence of God. That disagreement does not make either one of them delusional unless they've rejected the tangible facts of reality to arrive there.

Merriam-Webster defines "rational" as: "based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings"

Is belief in an invisible, untouchable, mute but all-knowing and all-powerful creator deity rational? Speaking solely from my perspective: no.

Steve, I'm not trying to change your mind. I just don't want your religion in my life.

 

[KG1]

All this thread needs now is for MrJ to show up with a flying spaghetti monster reference.

 

[PaulF]

Not quite..



Pathologically... saying the moon is made of cheese despite proof otherwise IS delusional.
Dogmatic beliefs, are not.

We can prove there is no cheese on the moon, we cannot prove there is, or is not, a God. See the difference?

Now, you can say "I personally think belief in a higher power is delusional", but it is intellectually dishonest to say that belief is the very definition of delusion

Merriam-Webster, again: Delusion ": a belief that is not true : a false idea"

 

[steveh_131]

Maybe, but only if it is a verifiable fact that your god exists. Then my atheism would be delusional. As it stands now, it is not...your god is merely speculation, just like all the other gods man has created over our history.

That doesn't make any sense, Paul. If I have to prove that God exists to render your belief delusional then you should have to prove that God does not exist to render my belief delusional.

Merriam-Webster defines "rational" as: "based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings"

Is belief in an invisible, untouchable, mute but all-knowing and all-powerful creator deity rational? Speaking solely from my perspective: no.

And yet I did arrive at my conclusion by facts and reason. Who are you to say that nobody could do so?

 

[2A_Tom]

Global warming and evolution have about the same amount of evidence, But you will not be convinced because you were taught when young that the evidence for evolution is real just as the children of today are being indoctrinated that the science behind global warming is true.

You don't have to tell me that you believe in evolution or any other humanist tenet you just have to use words like fantasy when referring to God.

Romans 1:21-22 (KJV)Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV)
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

You have said in the past that you don't use obloquies against believers But now you call me delusional and the mods thonk nothing of it because you didn't say troll.

You are a unbeliever and that is the right that God gave you because he does not want robots. All I can try to persuade you of His love for you as an individual.

 

[2A_Tom]

Merriam-Webster, again: Delusion ": a belief that is not true : a false idea"

OI! I forgot you are the arbiter of truth, and all this time I thought that was God.

BTW Meriam Webster changes its definitions to whatever they people like to believe a word means.

 

[Roadie]

Merriam-Webster, again: Delusion ": a belief that is not true : a false idea"

SO are you using the literary definition, or the medical definition?
If we are talking actually psychological delusion, then wouldn't the medical definition be preferred over Websters?

If you are speaking in generalities, using the term delusion as an off the cuff statement, then by all means. If you are talking actual clinical delusion, then you are being intellectually dishonest.

 

[Roadie]

That doesn't make any sense, Paul. If I have to prove that God exists to render your belief delusional then you should have to prove that God does not exist to render my belief delusional.

Excellent point

 

[Roadie]

Even Richard Dawkins thinks that absolute Atheism is intellectually dishonest. Using his own "Scale.. Dawkins placed himself at a 6.
Richard Dawkins: "On a scale of seven, where one means I know he exists, and seven I know he doesn't, I call myself a six. That doesn't mean I'm absolutely confident, that I absolutely know, because I don't."score 6.0

Sagan said:
“An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid” score: 5.5
------------


Richard Dawkins’ Belief Scale Scoring Rubric

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

I would say a 4 would be the most intellectually honest, IMHO, although I would put myself at a 2

 

[PaulF]

That doesn't make any sense, Paul. If I have to prove that God exists to render your belief delusional then you should have to prove that God does not exist to render my belief delusional.

Yes. If your god doesn't exist you are delusional. If your god does exist, then it is me that is delusional. I can't prove a negative...the burden of proof is on you: you are the one making the extraordinary claim that your god is the the lord and creator of the universe. I've never seen any evidence of its existence but a badly written book. If that should be my threshold for belief I am going to start looking for a Jedi Master to begin my training.

And yet I did arrive at my conclusion by facts and reason. Who are you to say that nobody could do so?

My world view is fluid, I could be wrong.

Facts are not just known, they can be shown. Show me your facts.

 

[PaulF]

Even Richard Dawkins thinks that absolute Atheism is intellectually dishonest. Using his own "Scale.. Dawkins placed himself at a 6.
Richard Dawkins: "On a scale of seven, where one means I know he exists, and seven I know he doesn't, I call myself a six. That doesn't mean I'm absolutely confident, that I absolutely know, because I don't."score 6.0

Sagan said:
“An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid” score: 5.5
------------


Richard Dawkins’ Belief Scale Scoring Rubric

1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

I would say a 4 would be the most intellectually honest, IMHO, although I would put myself at a 2

I put myself at a 6.

ETA: I couldn't care less what Dawkins has to say.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Merriam-Webster, again: Delusion ": a belief that is not true : a false idea"

How about the full definition.

1

: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded

2
a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated
b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

 

[PaulF]

How about the full definition.

You just expanded the definition, not narrowed.

But really, arguing semantics is pointless. Let's set "delusional" aside, it isn't getting us anywhere. It isn't my intention to be inflammatory, only to make a point...and that point is getting lost.

 

[steveh_131]

Paul, surely it was obvious that we were using the medical definition. I did specify "mentally ill" in the post that sparked this discussion...

This man is clearly mentally ill. If you want to compare me to him then it's the medical definition that you'll need to satisfy.

 

[PaulF]

Paul, surely it was obvious that we were using the medical definition. I did specify "mentally ill" in the post that sparked this discussion...

This man is clearly mentally ill. If you want to compare me to him then it's the medical definition that you'll need to satisfy.

Please, Steve...don't get me wrong. I am not accusing you of being mentally defective.

Go back and re-read the post that got everyone wound up:

Choosing fantasy over reality is the definition of delusion. If your god is real, you may not be delusional...but otherwise, in fact you are.

The distinction between a delusional mentally ill person and a person that practices a religion based on fantasy is that one of those people has a good reason to be delusional.

Is Christianity a delusion? From my perspective, yes...but I am not the final arbiter of these things. I could be wrong.

First, I'm not a doctor...I'm not referring to a clinical diagnosis. I am not qualified to make one of those.

Second, I have repeatedly couched my statements with "if your god isn't real", and "from my perspective". These are statement of opinion, not fact. I do not speak from authority.

Third, I am more than willing to admit that I might be wrong. I am asking you to do the same, merely for the sake of discussion. I am not trying to belittle you, or start a fight. But Steve, please be honest enough to admit that if your god really doesn't exist your religion would necessarily be based in fantasy. I have admitted as much about my beliefs upthread.

That man was clearly mentally ill, and in no real way am I attempting to draw a comparison between your mental state and his.

 

[Roadie]

Please, Steve...don't get me wrong. I am not accusing you of being mentally defective.

Go back and re-read the post that got everyone wound up:



First, I'm not a doctor...I'm not referring to a clinical diagnosis. I am not qualified to make one of those.

Second, I have repeatedly couched my statements with "if your god isn't real", and "from my perspective". These are statement of opinion, not fact. I do not speak from authority.

Third, I am more than willing to admit that I might be wrong. I am asking you to do the same, merely for the sake of discussion. I am not trying to belittle you, or start a fight. But Steve, please be honest enough to admit that if your god really doesn't exist your religion would necessarily be based in fantasy. I have admitted as much about my beliefs upthread.

That man was clearly mentally ill, and in no real way am I attempting to draw a comparison between your mental state and his.

With all due respect, that is not what you said..

Choosing fantasy over reality is the definition of delusion. If your god is real, you may not be delusional...but otherwise, in fact you are.

The distinction between a delusional mentally ill person and a person that practices a religion based on fantasy is that one of those people has a good reason to be delusional.

Is Christianity a delusion? From my perspective, yes...but I am not the final arbiter of these things. I could be wrong.

 

[steveh_131]

That man was clearly mentally ill, and in no real way am I attempting to draw a comparison between your mental state and his.

Which swings us back around to the original discussion.

I asked you if there was a distinction between me and him. You said no. This thread title also implies no. Which is it? Is my belief system equivalent to his?