Face to Face Sales

[HeadlessRoland]

I've found my new favorite troll.
Can I keep him, Mom?
He followed me home from INGO today!

Welcome to INGO, Rich.

 

[richardraw316]

I've found my new favorite troll.
Can I keep him, Mom?
He followed me home from INGO today!

Welcome to INGO, Rich.

Are you talking to me? or is your name rich?

 

[Sylvain]

Are you talking to me? or is your name rich?

 

[JimmyR]

I always try to do a bill of sale when I purchase from an individual. Its a comfort thing for me, giving me documentation on all the guns I own. I blame it on my work- since I work in healthcare, it is drummed into my head daily that "if it isn't documented, it didn't happen."

I will do a sale without, but thus far, I have gotten one on every F2F sale I have done.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

"I want to buy ze gun.Yes im French, why do you think I have this outrageous accent you son of a silly person?!"

 

[Remington700]

I am the original poster of this thread and I have read most of all this. I will make a BOS for a FTF even if I perchase the weapon.
What if the other person said I didn't pay for the gun and stoll it form him after the sale feel threw? How would I prove I did pay? I have A BOS that he signed. I feel better knowing I have it it eather way the deal goes. Its my peace of mind.

Thank you all for your ideas.
Bryce

 

[AlterEgoJason]

I can't wrap my brain around the people saying they won't do a bill of sale or won't buy from anyone that has one. Seems to me that it only relieves you of liability if you make one and holds you responsible if you are buying one.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I can't wrap my brain around the people saying they won't do a bill of sale or won't buy from anyone that has one. Seems to me that it only relieves you of liability if you make one and holds you responsible if you are buying one.

Question: Do bills of sale hold up in court?

Do bills of sale prove you do or don't own anything?

Do you believe that guns need to be regulated more than a power drill?

I prefer my personal buying and selling habits to have as little paper trail as legal. There is just no real purpose to it. The fact is, I don't know you. I don't do business from my house because of that fact, why the hell would I give you the very address I am trying to protect by meeting out in public? It makes no sense.

 

[Donnelly]

I want a receipt if I'm buying.

 

[jsharmon7]

"I want to buy ze gun.Yes im French, why do you think I have this outrageous accent you son of a silly person?!"

Just so you're aware, when I read your posts all I can hear is Pepe Le Pew talking about guns.

 

[Sylvain]

Just so you're aware, when I read your posts all I can hear is Pepe Le Pew talking about guns.

 

[David202]

Haven't been part of a face to face sale yet. From my understanding, showing a DL is a requirement to verify residency of Indiana. I don't think showing my LTCH is out of the question either. I would expect a bill of sale if I were on either side of the transaction. I wouldn't want the other party to copy down any info on my DL or LTCH though. I know some of this is not required by law, but I don't want to be any part of a sale that results in legal problems for either party when there is a complete lack of documentation. I would rather not complete the sale than buy a gun with a questionable history or sell a gun that is later used in a crime.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Haven't been part of a face to face sale yet. From my understanding, showing a DL is a requirement to verify residency of Indiana. I don't think showing my LTCH is out of the question either. I would expect a bill of sale if I were on either side of the transaction. I wouldn't want the other party to copy down any info on my DL or LTCH though. I know some of this is not required by law, but I don't want to be any part of a sale that results in legal problems for either party when there is a complete lack of documentation. I would rather not complete the sale than buy a gun with a questionable history or sell a gun that is later used in a crime.

It is not. You are not required to possess or show an operators for a vehicle to complete the sale of a firearm.

The rest is your preferrence but let me ask you something... Why does documentation give you the warm and fuzzies when selling and buying firearms? Maybe everyone should register their guns with the nanny state to make you guys feel better.

 

[SERparacord]

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
Also, here is the written law that the FAQ is referring to... (I've emboldened the pertinent parts)
18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful -

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport
into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it
maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise
obtained by such person outside that State, except that this
paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires
a firearm by bequest...
[It shall be unlawful -]
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall
not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

Sorry Mr. ATF, I didn't know he was from another State.
Mr. ATF

tell it to the Judge.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Just try to use federal law and my lawyer will laugh you out of court. It is a STATE law and it is not required.

They would have to prove intent to traffic the controlled item across state lines to bust you on federal charges and it would require a federal agent to do it. Indiana police do not enforce federal laws, they do not have the authority to do so.

I always ask the person, "Are you legally allowed to purchase a firearm in the state if Indiana?" When they answer to the positive you are legally in the clear.

This is an aside to my own feelings on the matter, if they seem shady or if anything is wrong I can terminate the sale at my discretion. I doubt this would ever happen because I always have a conversation with them first.

 

[richardraw316]

Just try to use federal law and my lawyer will laugh you out of court. It is a STATE law and it is not required.

They would have to prove intent to traffic the controlled item across state lines to bust you on federal charges and it would require a federal agent to do it. Indiana police do not enforce federal laws, they do not have the authority to do so.

I always ask the person, "Are you legally allowed to purchase a firearm in the state if Indiana?" When they answer to the positive you are legally in the clear.

This is an aside to my own feelings on the matter, if they seem shady or if anything is wrong I can terminate the sale at my discretion. I doubt this would ever happen because I always have a conversation with them first.

lets say you are right. the person you sold the weapon to kills somebody, is a felon, and an all around bad person. you stand in the court room and say, "i asked him if he legally allowed to purchase a firearm in the state of indiana." and yes that is all you have to do. you get to go free. you are an innocent person. but what happens when the story hits the news paper? the lefties crawl out of the wood work and demand the laws be changed. you may have covered yourself, but damned the rest of us.
were as same scenario, you asked to see drivers lisence and a bill of sale with a signature. it does not matter if both where faked, it looks better in the news story, because you did not do just the bare minimum. you did extra just to be sure. if he faked his id, then that is not yours or anyone elses fault. the lefties wont have a leg to stand on.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

lets say you are right. the person you sold the weapon to kills somebody, is a felon, and an all around bad person. you stand in the court room and say, "i asked him if he legally allowed to purchase a firearm in the state of indiana." and yes that is all you have to do. you get to go free. you are an innocent person. but what happens when the story hits the news paper? the lefties crawl out of the wood work and demand the laws be changed. you may have covered yourself, but damned the rest of us.
were as same scenario, you asked to see drivers lisence and a bill of sale with a signature. it does not matter if both where faked, it looks better in the news story, because you did not do just the bare minimum. you did extra just to be sure. if he faked his id, then that is not yours or anyone elses fault. the lefties wont have a leg to stand on.

If you have that many issues selling a gun then maybe you should stay home and collect comic books. Or just don't participate in FTF sales, go through a dealer so the innocent blood can be on THEIR hands.


You can't control people and you aren't responsible for someone else's actions. The media ALREADY uses everything they can against INCLUDING perfectly legal aspects of our hobby- trust me I know first hand. The General Assembly and the Governor would have to agree with the people screaming for more gun control and to tell you the truth, there just aren't that many of them. I can't remember the last time an antigun bill was INTRODUCED let alone passed in this state. To try now would be political suicide for a politician who really doesn't want to loose their cozy jobs.

I don't believe in regulations or laws for Bearing Arms- some people call them Infringements... So why would I go over and above to make sure the nany state "allows" someone to have one before I sell them one? If they are willing to lie to my face (convincingly so) they are more than capable of fooling YOU with a fake ID.

Keep in mind your pitiful preconceived notions fail to grasp the full concept of my stance. I am not saying I will sell a gun to just anyone, in fact I am very picky. I just don't (typically) rely on government issued documents unless I feel the need- I'm sure you didn't read my post about checking an INGOers drivers license that admitted he was from and heading to Illinois after the sale. He had an Indiana DL, Indiana plates and he told me he was legal to buy in Indiana. All I needed.

 

[David202]

It is not. You are not required to possess or show an operators for a vehicle to complete the sale of a firearm.

The rest is your preferrence but let me ask you something... Why does documentation give you the warm and fuzzies when selling and buying firearms? Maybe everyone should register their guns with the nanny state to make you guys feel better.

I'm not sure what makes you equate a bill of sale to a nanny state. I don't want anything resembling gun registration. I wouldn't run and submit that bill of sale to anyone. I would keep it for use as part of my defense if someone claimed that I committed a crime with the gun that I just sold. This wouldn't be that far of a stretch if my name was a on the 4473.

Okay, I shouldn't have said I would require a DL. Verifying residency is not required, but is (in my opinion) a good idea. I wouldn't want someone claiming I didn't attempt to do so. Another ID would suffice, but a DL is most common.

Again, doing a FTF from someone on INGO would likely not result in any problems. Still, I don't want to be any part of a the ensuing legal issues in the incredibly small chance that something happens. As you mentioned, it is preference. I can't control what they will do with the gun but I do my best to ensure that the gun isn't sold to a criminal. That's all. I just want to stay out of legal trouble and not sell to a criminal. These steps seem reasonable and are above and beyond the law. I am just offering my opinion on the subject and what I would do.

 

[KG1]

I think we should just quit owning or carrying firearms. Something bad might happen.

I'm gonna go wring my hands right now and conjure up some hypothetical scenarios where I could possibly lose more of my rights if I do anything.

 

[richardraw316]

If you have that many issues selling a gun then maybe you should stay home and collect comic books. Or just don't participate in FTF sales, go through a dealer so the innocent blood can be on THEIR hands.


You can't control people and you aren't responsible for someone else's actions. The media ALREADY uses everything they can against INCLUDING perfectly legal aspects of our hobby- trust me I know first hand. The General Assembly and the Governor would have to agree with the people screaming for more gun control and to tell you the truth, there just aren't that many of them. I can't remember the last time an antigun bill was INTRODUCED let alone passed in this state. To try now would be political suicide for a politician who really doesn't want to loose their cozy jobs.

I don't believe in regulations or laws for Bearing Arms- some people call them Infringements... So why would I go over and above to make sure the nany state "allows" someone to have one before I sell them one? If they are willing to lie to my face (convincingly so) they are more than capable of fooling YOU with a fake ID.

Keep in mind your pitiful preconceived notions fail to grasp the full concept of my stance. I am not saying I will sell a gun to just anyone, in fact I am very picky. I just don't (typically) rely on government issued documents unless I feel the need- I'm sure you didn't read my post about checking an INGOers drivers license that admitted he was from and heading to Illinois after the sale. He had an Indiana DL, Indiana plates and he told me he was legal to buy in Indiana. All I needed.

Comic books. nice one.
Here is what i am going to do.
When i sell a fire arm, i will see a drivers license, ltch, and they will sign a bill of sale, that will have the serial number of the fire arm, date, price of purchase, names, and signatures. If not there will be no sale.
I will continue to protect myself, the person who purchases from me, and every other resposible gun owner. i will do that by not being foolish. by not going by gut instinct. i will act as if every gun hating person is watching me, waiting for me to make a mistake. I wont.