Expect a bloody weekend in Indianapolis

[actaeon277]

I know it doesn't excuse not following the rules. (I always pointed in the air, myself)
But all exhibit guns were deactivated in some way.
Modern guns usually were missing a firing pin.
Pre-modern guns had nipples removed.

Each gun was inspected, and marked.
During the even, inspectors roamed and rechecked marking and that the weapon was still inactive.

 

[actaeon277]

I'll agree that common sense should always be used... sure. And you should never get complacent through habit. That's a quick trip to the ER or worse for you or someone else. But that being said, as a member of the military... I feel the flagging bit is a good general safety rule. Being stuck on "the rules" as you put it, keeps people alive. Rules are rules for a reason. You don't know me... would you simply accept a weapon from me without checking it if I handed it to you, assuming that I handed you an empty weapon? I hope not. If you said yes, then you are actually contributing to the very thing that gets people shot.

As for the military... part of what causes negligent discharges ESPECIALLY at clearing barrels is the actual procedure itself. The Army for instance, requires that you pull the trigger as a step. Most of the ND's on a base come from that right there. The Navy's clearing barrel procedures are completely different. The Navy drops the mag, and clears the chamber manually. The Navy also REQUIRES two person integrity. Mock it if you want, but it is what it is. As for you talking with such expertise on "how a lot of people in the military get shot" I'd beg to differ. Most are actually accidents. Real accidents, not the "I was pointing my weapon at him and it went off" accident. Those people that screw around are the people that don't take "the rules" seriously. Those are the people I, and the others in command are quick to correct. Like anything though, the bad press is what people hear about.

We SHOULD be able to rely on common sense to rule. We should be able to do a lot of things. There's warning labels on McDonalds coffee telling you it's hot too.

People look at me funny.
But when I have to do something requiring breaking a rule (doesn't happen often)
I empty and check.
Remove ammo from area.
Present weapon to 2nd person for independent verification.

Sometimes, I have to tell the person, "Check it better. Pretend I don't know what I'm doing and YOUR life depends on it."

 

[engineerpower]

I know it doesn't excuse not following the rules. (I always pointed in the air, myself)
But all exhibit guns were deactivated in some way.
Modern guns usually were missing a firing pin.
Pre-modern guns had nipples removed.

Each gun was inspected, and marked.
During the even, inspectors roamed and rechecked marking and that the weapon was still inactive.

How difficult would it have been for an activist to slip in a live gun with a round chambered, and just wait for the inevitable "horrible accident" at the convention?

 

[jcwit]

So, I'm sure you'd be down with a bunch of strangers pointing guns at you and dry firing for 4 hours? Many of them armed with their own sidearms, and some of whom deholstered at some point.

It's "Never point a weapon at something you don't intend to destroy" not "whenever you feel like it". I was friends with a German Paratrooper in Afghanistan who just happened to be the closest vehicle when a medic in 1-87 INF, 10th MTN wasted his buddy while playing quick-draw in the tents. Put a 9 milli-mill right through his friend's throat, and mein Freund was traumatized from how much blood was all over his jeep from the guy bleeding out. This was in addition to the other ND's those losers had (they average 1 per 10 days).

I make it a point not to flag myself, my family, or anyone else. If you find yourself doing it daily, you've got a problem. Blow your nuts off if you want, but we'd all prefer you didn't bum around with a shoulder rig and point a loaded weapon at everyone behind you.

The rules are absolutes because the odds can catch up with you at the worst time, and that 0.01% chance that some bastard "dry fired" a loaded weapon may be at you, your wife, your kid, etc. But, I'm sure you'd be very understanding.

Man alive, someone sure has an attitude.

Please never go to a gun show. You will be traumatized beyond repair.

 

[jcwit]

How difficult would it have been for an activist to slip in a live gun with a round chambered, and just wait for the inevitable "horrible accident" at the convention?

May slip in a live round? Please explain how that is going to effect a deactivated arm?

 

[Pmpkn8r]

I admittedly (and sometimes laughably) will still turn over a weapon to someone out of habit and say "safety, magazine, chamber, safety" indicating each time that it is in the proper state of safe, empty, open, and safe.

 

[actaeon277]

How difficult would it have been for an activist to slip in a live gun with a round chambered, and just wait for the inevitable "horrible accident" at the convention?

May slip in a live round? Please explain how that is going to effect a deactivated arm?

He said live gun with a round.

And yes it would suck.
If you look at my earlier post, I said it does not excuse the act. And that I pointed in a safe direction, usually up.

Maybe you'd (engineerpower) like to run around educating all the other people.
I try, but I'm one guy.

 

[Cameramonkey]

How difficult would it have been for an activist to slip in a live gun with a round chambered, and just wait for the inevitable "horrible accident" at the convention?

May slip in a live round? Please explain how that is going to effect a deactivated arm?

+1 While I agree in principle with Engineerpower he/she is barking up the wrong tree, tilting at windmills, etc.

In regards to the displays, we arent technically dealing with firearms thanks to careful event planning. we are dealing with "99%" firearms... replicas technically. Assuming somebody DID slip in a live round, what would happen? Absolutely nothing as all weapons were required to be rendered inoperative before being displayed.

The attitude of worrying about what could happen with a live round/proper handling of replica/99% weapons while noble, is misguided and overzealous. Yes, we should all practice the 4 rules at all times. ABSOLUTELY YES it was rude for the idiots to be pointing inop guns at people and dry firing. But whats next? Practicing the 4 rules with cap guns? squirt guns? sticks shaped like guns? There comes a point where the rules dont necessarily apply or at least arent that big of a deal. (cue Kirk's head exploding with my muttering those words)

 

[cop car]

So, I'm sure you'd be down with a bunch of strangers pointing guns at you and dry firing for 4 hours? Many of them armed with their own sidearms, and some of whom deholstered at some point.

I never saw anyone de holster their own weapon. and no I am not down with anyone pointing a weapon at me and dry firing it. I in fact didn't see a single person do that. all day Friday. I do believe that all the guns were made to not fire, I noticed at one booth, every gun had its firing pins removed. my guess would be that they weapons were made so they couldn't fire. at the rock river arms booth I attempted to "shotgun" their pds to look at the piston set up. but I was stopped. I am guessing so that someone couldn't put a firing pin or do anything else to make it fire.

if being flagged bothered you that much, I would suggest that you stay away from any lgs, any 1500 gun and knife show, or any other nra event in the future. for how many people and how many guns were at that show, its really a testament to how many people are safety conscious that nothing happened.

 

[engineerpower]

In regards to the displays, we arent technically dealing with firearms thanks to careful event planning. we are dealing with "99%" firearms... replicas technically. Assuming somebody DID slip in a live round, what would happen? Absolutely nothing as all weapons were required to be rendered inoperative before being displayed.

There's no such thing as a "99% Firearm", and the only "replicas" there were a couple rubber ducks. Those were all real firearms. And I didn't say "slip in a live round", I said "slip in a live gun". Kids die in Basic from time to time from the same thing; somebody slips a blank into their rifle, they don't check it, and fire it off f*cking around or with a cleaning rod in the barrel. There is *NO* good reason to point a firearm ("99%" or not) at something you don't intend to destroy.

The attitude of worrying about what could happen with a live round/proper handling of replica/99% weapons while noble, is misguided and overzealous. Yes, we should all practice the 4 rules at all times. ABSOLUTELY YES it was rude for the idiots to be pointing inop guns at people and dry firing. But whats next? Practicing the 4 rules with cap guns? squirt guns? sticks shaped like guns? There comes a point where the rules dont necessarily apply or at least arent that big of a deal. (cue Kirk's head exploding with my muttering those words)

Get real. Please.

Maybe when you see a 13 year-old boy's brains splattered all over a bedroom wall, or blood all over a jeep from a guy bleeding out you'll take it seriously.

 

[Cameramonkey]

So, EP, with sentiment that strong, and that you NEVER EVER EVER cover somebody with a loaded weapon, you are saying you refuse to leave the ground floor of any building with a weapon in a belt holster? After all you may be covering someone on the floor below you.

You DID say NEVER after all.

Not trolling, just demonstrating the fallacy of absolutes that you seem to subscribe to.

 

[Tombs]

flagging is over rated. its a stupid ass term the military came up with so that drill sergeants could yell at recruits. if you really think about how many times you flag yourself and others in one day, and then tried to prevent it, youd end up shooting yourself. im flaging myself as we speak. because my gun is inside my pants, its pointed directly at me. every rifle that was hanging on hooks was flagging people also. somehow everyone who walked by didn't die though.

as for the safe and checking the chambers, guess what, you can handle a loaded gun without it going off!! on the guns that I pulled the trigger, for the most part I checked the chambers before pulling the trigger, and for sure made sure that they were pointed in a safe direction.

people being constantly stuck on "the rules" rather than having common sense approaches to gun safety are what get people hurt IMO, just because someone clears a handgun or rifle in the same manner that they clear their gun at home and then automatically assume that its clear and go ahead and pull the trigger, could lead to an oopsie. this is why everyone should just be conscious of the operation of weapons and what makes what do what more than being worried about flagging people etc.

that being said I would never point a gun at someone let alone pull the trigger, unless im using it to defend myself. this is how a lot of people in the military get shot, horsing around.. pointing guns at people, pulling the trigger and then boom, someones dead. all because "we always clear our weapons before going in the barracks" or "I didn't think it was loaded"

Deactivated or not, some moron can manage to do something you may not expect. For that matter, they could have left their carry piece in a booth. You don't know, and the rules will CYA in such an event.

The 4 rules are easy enough to follow. There was nothing about the show that made it difficult to obey the 4 rules. I cleared every single weapon I was trying the trigger on, and they were either pulled off the stand facing the floor the entire time or were facing the sky, depending on which way would be the least likely to flag someone.

And yes, I realize that the way some of the stands were made, made it impossible to avoid flagging someone when pulling the gun off the rack. This is why you keep your finger off the trigger until you can assure it's pointed in a safe direction.

 

[engineerpower]

So, EP, with sentiment that strong, and that you NEVER EVER EVER cover somebody with a loaded weapon, you are saying you refuse to leave the ground floor of any building with a weapon in a belt holster? After all you may be covering someone on the floor below you.

You DID say NEVER after all.

Not trolling, just demonstrating the fallacy of absolutes that you seem to subscribe to.

I clear my sidearm and go to condition 3 when I get home because I have children underfoot and don't want to take a chance with little fingers finding a trigger. I can't remember the last time I carried on an upper floor that didn't have a floor that would stop a rifle round.

Also, there's a difference between nonsensical absolutes and practicality. Big difference between IWB on the hip and a shoulder rig.

Deactivated or not, some moron can manage to do something you may not expect. For that matter, they could have left their carry piece in a booth. You don't know, and the rules will CYA in such an event.

The 4 rules are easy enough to follow. There was nothing about the show that made it difficult to obey the 4 rules. I cleared every single weapon I was trying the trigger on, and they were either pulled off the stand facing the floor the entire time or were facing the sky, depending on which way would be the least likely to flag someone.

And yes, I realize that the way some of the stands were made, made it impossible to avoid flagging someone when pulling the gun off the rack. This is why you keep your finger off the trigger until you can assure it's pointed in a safe direction.

Thanks for getting it, Tombs.

 

[jcwit]

EP, do you drive a car or truck?

Do you EVER use your cell phone while driving?

Have you EVER had a beer and gotten into your vehicle and driven anywhere?

Just wondering?

 

[engineerpower]

EP, do you drive a car or truck?

I've had both. My last vehicle was a '94 GMC Sierra 5.7 V8 4x4 I would run off-road up in the mountains of New Mexico. My current is a Honda Del Sol.

Do you EVER use your cell phone while driving?

Occasionally, that's what Bluetooth is for. I make calls before I take off, and keep received calls brief while underway.

Have you EVER had a beer and gotten into your vehicle and driven anywhere?

After a couple hours have passed, yes.

Just wondering?

I'm not a prude or limp-wristed wanker, if that's what you're getting at. Like yourself, I'm an Army vet and been a range officer many a time, and still believe in personal responsibility.

 

[jcwit]

May "common sense" rule your "responsibility".

As I said before, Please, Please stay away from gun shows.

Range Officer? Card carrying from the NRA?

 

[cce1302]

I bet he can tell the difference between a holstered gun and a pointed gun.

 

[engineerpower]

Range Officer? Card carrying from the NRA?

I've run at least a dozen ranges myself as the OIC, and was the Range Safety Officer for the Army Sapper School for a spell. Handgun, Rifle, Battalion Qualification, Machinegun, Joint ranges with International forces. I have certifications from both the Army and USMC, to include explosives and demolitions. Nothing from the NRA; sorry, too busy in uniform.

I bet he can tell the difference between a holstered gun and a pointed gun.

Thanks, CCE. I think that's the point, isn't it?

This thread has been hijacked by now; don't really want it to become a flame-war or round of "smear the queer". It's a bad idea for 70,000 people to be pointing deadly weapons at each other and pulling the trigger all day. If you're cool with that, then whatever. I for one (and I'm sure may others here) have had lots of triggers pulled on us for real, and don't much appreciate it anymore.

Please accept my apologies to anyone I may have stepped on toes with.

 

[cbhausen]

I would not be comfortable pointing a weapon at anyone not endangering me let alone pulling the trigger, even if the weapon was rendered inoperative.

It looks bad.

It feels bad.

It IS bad.

Period.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I would not be comfortable pointing a weapon at anyone not endangering me let alone pulling the trigger, even if the weapon was rendered inoperative.

It looks bad.

It feels bad.

It IS bad.

Period.

Agreed. blatantly covering and pulling is a d*ck move even if it IS inop.