Ejected from Cabela's for open-carrying

[tv1217]

I wouldn't say every "car incident" is avoidable by paying attention, it's just that the ones that aren't tend to be one in a million incidents.

Something weird like a small object skipping of the road, ripping your brake line, you don't know anything happened because there wasn't a jolt or indicator light, then a deer runs out in front of you, you swerve to avoid it and crash into a Tyrannosaurus Rex that escaped from Jurassic Park.

 

[chasekerion4]

I wouldn't say every "car incident" is avoidable by paying attention, it's just that the ones that aren't tend to be one in a million incidents.

Something weird like a small object skipping of the road, ripping your brake line, you don't know anything happened because there wasn't a jolt or indicator light, then a deer runs out in front of you, you swerve to avoid it and crash into a Tyrannosaurus Rex that escaped from Jurassic Park.

I forgot about Rex.. That almost happened to me! But it still woulda been my fault. How could I not see Tyrannosaurus Rex?

 

[jsharmon7]

I have to say that some of the comments posted about this incident are quite discomforting. Personally, I believe that Scutter was disrespected by the employee and that the employee was in violation of the company policy. Furthermore, I definitely think the issue should be taken up with a store GM, District GM, Regional GM, Corporate customer service, or anyone else who is higher up the food chain than the employee he spoke with or the AP agent who instructed her to go speak with him. My issue though is with the folks here on INGO who have canceled orders from Cabela's or who are threatening to boycott the company altogether. This situation was caused by a couple of employees (or one retail location, at worst) who were ignorant of the policy or were knowingly violating it, not the entire Cabela's corporation. What happens when some lunatic shoots a bunch of people and the media attacks gun owners and the anti-gun control crowd? We are quick to cry foul in that situation because we understand that it was an isolated incident and it's not fair to lump us all together. Casting the sins of few onto the many is never right, and this situation is no different. Bring this incident to the attention of those higher up than store level if you want a change. Organizing boycotts, open carry events, and canceling your orders from the Cabela's corporation though is completely hypocritical.

 

[ATM]

So... anyone want to argue about OC vs. CC?

(C'mon, I was gone for the first 283 posts in this thread.)

 

[oldfb]

...la’s supports responsible gun ownership and is committed to providing a safe family shopping environment. Accordingly, (Cabela’s reserves the right to implement firearm safety procedures within its stores as Cabela’s deems appropriate)

That last line of his letter is legalspeak for "we empower our a$$hat managers to screw with anyone they choose."
We all pretty much know the employee hangs to the left regardless of what her AP said. She couldn't say handgun or firearm it was "that thing". Was it because she knew better than to call it a "glock" or a "forty" to someone not in da hood? Was she afraid it would suddenly come to life spraying death and mayhem if she spoke its evil name? Was she perhaps some $8 an hour nimwit with a complex? You are right to feel disgust with her for her disrespect. By all means choose to start a boycott or protest any legal way available. But please don't lose one moment of sleep over the pinheads that will never get it. To them the constitution is a piece of history. To most of us it means more. Please allow for civil discussion and some humor without tuning up on each other because some do more or less to exercise our rights. I hadn't considered OC until I came here and was educated. I still will probably CC because of the attitudes flung here. By some peoples standards I will hurt the cause by OCing because I am "fat and stupid". I am 400 pounds and I have had 1 accidental/negligent discharge after the 18 years of owning a gun. Does that make my oppinions any less important in the support of our cause?
Is someone that OCs all the time more of a patriot? Is a CCer less? The 2nd ammendment says all have the right. Skinny fat smart stupid ugly pretty... All created equal! Then we have a group or one that say "nope if u don't meet this standard then you really shouldn't carry and aren't helping our cause?" Guys I am sorry you had a bad experience and will aide your legal protest if you ask my for my help. Goodluck and be safe!
FB

 

[Indy317]

Yes, I understand what some people feel is the core issue here, that corporate policy seems to state one thing and local policy conflicts with that.

I am not very pro-OCing unless you in a more rural area. In more suburban or urban areas, I think OCing dangerous personally, but I know most will disagree. Anyways, I believe that what we have here is a corporate policy from a company that has its roots in a more rural, gun friendly area of the country. As Cabela's has grown, they have opened stores in more suburban/urban areas, where the open carrying of handguns makes everyone think one is a police officer. As soon as the people fail to see _any_ badge, they start to freak. Such is life and I doubt things will change anytime soon.

I wonder if they will change corporate policy or do anything? Yea, I know, when everyone calls, they get the same "Yes sir, our policy is to allow OC in our stores. We are working on this issue. We appologize for this incident." So they either mean it or they don't. Unless we can get an insider to post here, we won't know exactly what Cabela's _really_ does with this issue.

 

[Indy317]

You know, at first, I thought...."How can this NOT be about OC? The whole thing would not have even happened if you were CC'ing." Then I read your original post again. It dawned on me what the problem was.

OC'ing an XD? Really? Don't you have any decency, sir? I'd have thrown you off the property as well. NOBODY should have to look at those hideous things in public. Sweet Mother of Pearl, man.....think of the children!

I agree. Had it been a Glock, they would have rolled out a red carpet _and_ had young women in bikinis come out and throw rose petals for you to walk on.

 

[daddysmallbucks]

There is absolutely no GOOD reason to carry exposed...Period. The element of surprise is your friend. I understand your point perfectly. But think about this...What if the place had got held up while you were in there and you didn't see them before they saw you...who do you think would have got the heat first? The dude with the gun! Just makes complete sense to always be discrete.

Now as far as written policy and what was "right or wrong" in your situation. to you because you were treated like Mud. And Damn them for cherry picking their policy!

Now, I am as pro-gun as it gets. I concealed carry pretty much at all times. I can, however, see where the store managers may be coming from.

Most of the people on this board are intelligent and skilled markmen. However, how many of us know friends that own guns that are idiots? Ones that have accidentally discharged weapons, etc? A former friend of mine lost his life showing someone how safe a 45 grip safety was by aiming the gun at his head. Unfortunately he still had a good enough grip to release the safety. This friend worked at a gun store and was very knowledgeable.

If I had a store, and you walked into it with a gun in plain sight, I am thinking there are many potential problems. For starters, you may be a threat. I don't know you have a LTCH. I don't know that you aren't a kook. I don't know that you aren't going to unholster it to show it to someone, even an employee. Accidents happen, and any accidents that happen on their property the business can get sued for. For the store owner, there are no upsides to you wandering the building armed. If they get robbed and you just happen to be standing there, the last thing management would want is for you to go Charles Bronson and start shooting. Policy is to hand over the loot and call the cops, not to confront and maybe get some people killed in the process.

So in summary, the best move for them is to ask you to leave. Whether you can exercise your right is meaningless to them, you are a liability in their eyes, and frankly, you're on private property. They have the right, just like you do in your own home, to set the standard of what they will tolerate in their own building, for the safety of themselves and the customers you may chase off with your "scary" exposed gun.

For me, I can defend myself and the loved ones with me....while at the same time, not scaring the sheeple. They can't ask me to leave if they don't know it's there.

 

[smokingman]

You make good points. It is true, the crook would likely have the weapon hidden until he makes his move. A store manager cannot act on what he is not aware of. But a gun in plain sight? Now he has to make a judgment call, whether he wants to take a chance on this person or not. If he doesn't know you personally, I'm guessing he'll take the safe option and ask you to leave.

This reminds me of a funny open carry story: flashback to the mid 1980's; Miami Vice was at the height of it's popularity. Everyone was dressing like Don Johnson and packing stainless 9mm's. The day I turned 17, I applied for my LTCH, and got it a few weeks later. My dad bought me a Colt Government in stainless and I was off to the races.

One shiny summer day, me and my best friend were cruising in my decidedly swanky TR7 convertible, doing what we did on most summer days, cruising around looking for babes. We both had shoulder rigs under our jeans jackets. For whatever reason, that day we decided to go Miami Vice and took the jackets off as we did a loop around the strip, figuring we would look cool doing it, being 17 and all. In very short order, the cops predictably pulled us over.

"What the hell are you idiots doing?" says the patrolman. "We have permits for these." we reply. "Yes, but you look like a couple of jackasses. Cover those things up." and then he let us go.

We kinda sat there for a moment. "Yeah, we do look like jackasses."

That's the last time I open carried

In what state could you get a carry permit at 17?Ever?Most states are 21 with a few being 18.If there is a 17 I have never heard of it.

The whole point of the argument is that this is a cooperate store,with a policy that allows firearms by license holders. CC or open if it is there policy the employees should be aware of it,period.It is not the right of one person to ignore policy because something offends them.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I tried to back out of this gracefully, but since I am still getting addressed in this thread, and since I am still getting kookmail, fine. I'll rejoin the discourse.

I am not sure you helping old ladies across the street while packing an exposed Desert Eagle .50 is going to compensate for all the news stories on every night now about some guy somewhere who just offed 10 people with an assault rifle. You are just adding to the public perception that there are too many people running around with weapons. CC is out of sight, out of mind. Protect your rights while not scaring the civilians.

I had a hoot watching the news footage archived on opencarry.com...not exactly even-handed coverage of OC events. Pretty much every one was the same. 1] Announce scary gun event at local zoo or whatever; 2] Interview OC guy explaining why he is not a kook; 3] Fast cut to public going, WTH are all these guys doing armed at the zoo? Is Bigfoot loose or something? and 4] Cut to reporter shaking their head in dismay. The End.

Not sure how this helps the cause.

OK, first things first: I do not OC. I make that choice for myself, primarily because I do not own a holster that has any retention features and I think that it would be irresponsible of me to OC without that. Note please, I don't say that others are irresponsible-if they have the situational awareness or the reflexes or whatever to prevent a gun grab, more power to them.
That said, I support OC as a personal choice. In your post above, you first address how *I* help old ladies across the street with an OC .50 DE, then segue into media coverage of OC events. Two separate issues!

My goal in my form of activism, and what I believe helps the gun owner in general and OC, specifically "cause" best is to touch minds and lives personally. Here's how it works: Several years back, we saw the whole OJ Simpson saga played out on the news, first how he went and slashed Nicole and Ron Goldman's throats with a knife, the whole thing with the bloody gloves, the slow-speed chase in the white Bronco, Fuhrman screwing with evidence, etc., etc., etc.

"Kooks", to use your word all the way through it.

No one has ever, then or now, publicly said we shouldn't have ex-football players who transition to "acting" (using the term loosely), knives of any kind, gloves, children named Nicole or Ron, white Broncos, White Supremacist police officers who screw with evidence in cases involving Black defendants, etc., etc., etc. Why not? Because most people recognize that the kooks in that story are very specific kooks, and the tools they use are commonplace items, just as a hammer is a commonplace item, but a few years ago, a guy used one to kill two young Purdue students, but no one is banning hammers.

The aim is to make the individual who carries, OC or CC, more commonplace. I'd personally LOVE to see 20% (or more!) of Indiana's adult population armed. I don't expect it, as last I heard, we're only about 6%, but I think it would be great. The idea is that when *I* hold the door open for someone, help an old lady across the street, or whatever, that person and whoever saw it happen sees the nice guy doing a good deed, and oh, by the way:
"Mommy, that man has a gun on."
"You know, sweetie, you're right, he does! What do you say to him for holding the door for us, though?"
"Thank youuuu!"
MUCH better interaction than your scenarios or than the "news" reports. Right now, we have a mostly-anti-freedom media. To do an OC (or any event that involves firearms) event, you have to know this and do a goodly amount of planning ahead. You have to find a reporter that is friendly to your cause. If you can't do that (or even if you can), invite them out to shoot, one on one, and give a few minutes for that slow, huge smile to spread across their face as they "get it". When you're ready for your event, you call THAT reporter personally and tell them so they can get the scoop. Your group has to be exceedingly polite, nicely dressed, etc., and in short, just choosing to OC vs. CC that day. If you get a reporter who stands against gun rights, you see hatchet jobs like what you reported you saw. Which comments they air of the ones they get, and in what order they air them, can affect perception of the event enormously.

If done correctly, you have gained one more vote for gun rights from the reporter. Your event and their story about your event may have gained hundreds, even thousands of voters.

And THAT is how it helps the "cause" to have people OC.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

So, are you actually saying that as you wander the earth like the guy in Kung Fu people stop you in the street and say, "Hello! You are obviously an ambassador of gun rights, can you please take a few minutes to educate me on why carrying a gun like Wyatt Earp is a good idea?"

Riiiiight.

Some have reported having people do exactly that, though not in those words. I've not had it happen, but I'd guess it would be something like:

<looooooooking at gun repeatedly>
<LTCH holder Kwi-Chang Kane smiles, friendly, noticing>
"Um.... a-are you a cop?"
<bigger smile> "Nope. Just a free citizen, just like you."
"I...I didn't know we could have... um... those.... like that..."
"Sure can. In Indiana, you have to have a Licence to Carry, but if you have it, there're only a few places you can't legally carry."
"I-I'm kinda scared of guns..."
"Have you ever shot one? If you'd like, I'll be happy to meet you at a range near here sometime this week or next?"
....
You get the idea. That's a lot harder to do when they don't see your gun. I have done it, but it's because (as 3000+ posts and my name on here indicate) I'm not afraid to speak up about our rights, and when good things are introduced in the legislature, or when bad things happen in the legislature or elsewhere, I'm not hesitant to make my views known. The typical "too many guns-we need to take them all away!" screed, for example, I usually answer with, "Sure. Criminals first. Make that happen and we'll talk." or something similar. You CAN get people to the range, and that works wonders.

If you get them talking about OC and they express a belief, as you did, that openly carried guns are just about showing off, or don't really help in case of crime, ask, then, why police in uniform carry openly vs. concealed. (that is, why the uniform does not have an IWB vs. a hip holster.) One big benefit is that if you are OCing, people can see it and stare, comment, or whatever, leading to that range trip.

One additional point as well: Yes, there have been times a uniformed officer has been the first one shot. That's because they are planned for, always there, expected, and advertising their presence. An unexpected citizen in such a place might be seen only at the last minute, quite possibly after the OCer has seen the criminal and transferred whatever he was holding to his wife and had her duck down out of sight behind the store shelves. As the criminal, are you dumb enough to draw your weapon when the LTCH holder has his hand empty but on the butt of his holstered gun, giving you that little, barely-perceptible headshake that says, "Don't do it...."?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

So... anyone want to argue about OC vs. CC?

(C'mon, I was gone for the first 283 posts in this thread.)

I still like your comment yesterday when I told you what I thought AP stood for:

Assistant Pissant: "Someday.... someday I will BE the Pissant!"



Funny stuff!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[oldfb]

I still like your comment yesterday when I told you what I thought AP stood for:

Assistant Pissant: "Someday.... someday I will BE the Pissant!"



Funny stuff!

Blessings,
Bill

+1 for Bill!
thanks bill. You tend to brow beat the pisahnts a tad harshly, but you have strong convictions, wisdom and tasty bacon!

 

[ryanmercer]

Someone should start an online petition type thing... maybe someone has but I don't have time to read 30 pages of posts from 1 day.

 

[rhino]

Dudes: Tilting at Windmills.

You can't educate or persuade someone who already knows everything and whose opinions are facts because . . . because . . . they believe it. 'Cause they read it . . . somewhere. You can't reason with someone who is too clever for you. I suspect that the rolling of their eyeballs impedes the input of facts and logic, but I could be wrong. Remember, just because you're among the most fiercely individual people on the planet, the fact that a few of you agree on something means you're a mob and incapable of independent thought. So learn your lesson and slink back to your hidey hole.

And . . . your exposed gun is your shame. You MUST HIDE YOUR SHAME! HIDE IT!

At risk of repeating myself, I shall once again don my amateur psychologist's cap. I believe that on at least a subconscious level, those who so vehemently oppose open carry truly are the one's who are actually expressing shame. On some level they've been indoctinated into the modern social construct that guns are bad, carrying a gun is wrong, and if you do so, you are a bad person. They are not (yet at least) capable of moving past that shame, so they seek instead to belittle those who are less impaired emotionally. Some will even attempt to parrot what they believe to be fact in order to bolster their own resolve, and agreement from similarly afflicted persons leads them to the erroneous conclusion that they are correct.

Sure, I could be completely wrong, but I'm probably close enough to the truth that it will hurt some feelings. That's unfortunate, but my point for sharing this is that unless and until someone realizes and acknowledges that their opinion is based on fear and shame and acts to get past it, no useful dialog will ever occur. You can't reason with an unreasonable individual, even if they might be reasonable at some other time, perhaps about some other issue. It's difficult to avoid engaging them, especially those who are able to mimic rational rhetoric, but I think it's best to try to consider the underlying issues and then disengage.

And my IGNORE list has now grown to 25 customers.

 

[Roadie]

I would respond to this, but as most of your posts to me are blah blah commie blah blah Feinstein Lover blah blah blah, I'll just let the fact that you are proud of owning a two-tone Bersa speak for itself. OH SNAP! lol

So now you are going to insult me because of what I carry?? So I shouldn't be allowed to be proud of my handgun if YOU don't like it? I shouldn't be able to buy a handgun until it is in my budget to pay $700 for something nicer? No, you are right, I shouldn't worry about protecting my family if all I can afford is a Bersa, how DARE I think otherwise. How old are you, 12?

(and when did I ever mention the words commie, Feinstein Lover, etc? try re-reading my posts sparky, I think you are confusing me with someone else)

 

[jsgolfman]

I wonder if those who wish to chastise OC'ers realize that the reason for licensing in the first place was only for CC, as it was thought nefarious. Only criminals and shady characters concealed their weapons. The license aspect was to keep tabs on that individual and to discourage the carrying of concealed firearms as it cost nothing to carry openly.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Dudes: Tilting at Windmills.

You can't educate or persuade someone who already knows everything and whose opinions are facts because . . . because . . . they believe it. 'Cause they read it . . . somewhere. You can't reason with someone who is too clever for you. I suspect that the rolling of their eyeballs impedes the input of facts and logic, but I could be wrong. Remember, just because you're among the most fiercely individual people on the planet, the fact that a few of you agree on something means you're a mob and incapable of independent thought. So learn your lesson and slink back to your hidey hole.

And . . . your exposed gun is your shame. You MUST HIDE YOUR SHAME! HIDE IT!

At risk of repeating myself, I shall once again don my amateur psychologist's cap. I believe that on at least a subconscious level, those who so vehemently oppose open carry truly are the one's who are actually expressing shame. On some level they've been indoctinated into the modern social construct that guns are bad, carrying a gun is wrong, and if you do so, you are a bad person. They are not (yet at least) capable of moving past that shame, so they seek instead to belittle those who are less impaired emotionally. Some will even attempt to parrot what they believe to be fact in order to bolster their own resolve, and agreement from similarly afflicted persons leads them to the erroneous conclusion that they are correct.

Sure, I could be completely wrong, but I'm probably close enough to the truth that it will hurt some feelings. That's unfortunate, but my point for sharing this is that unless and until someone realizes and acknowledges that their opinion is based on fear and shame and acts to get past it, no useful dialog will ever occur. You can't reason with an unreasonable individual, even if they might be reasonable at some other time, perhaps about some other issue. It's difficult to avoid engaging them, especially those who are able to mimic rational rhetoric, but I think it's best to try to consider the underlying issues and then disengage.

And my IGNORE list has now grown to 25 customers.

ATM ?

 

[smokingman]

 

[dice dealer]

I will just choose to not do business with them AT ALL