drunk officer kills motorcyclist

[Gpfury86]

Looks like you are wrong. The Indianapolis Star is all over this story.

What I meant was that they will hold back certain facts if it incriminates him more. Obviously they aren't going to be able to keep the news from reporting it. All the stories I have read are fairly vague and leave a lot of facts out. Sorry should have explained myself better.

 

[MinuteMan47]

I'm not an attorney. I'm not defending this man for what he has been accused. Whether or not someone is a flight risk is one factor a judge considers when deciding whether or not bond will be granted and if so, how much. Another factor is if he or she is a danger to the community. Apparently the legal system decided that this man wasn't a significant flight risk, nor a danger to the community.

I can't respond to your reference about the drug bust. I'm not familiar with the case to which you are referring, but it doesn't seem pertinent to this particular instance.

As far as the double standard issue, apparently I have it right.

You must have forgotten what you typed, so I included it below. I would like to know how you consider it not to be a double standard that they "notified him and allowed him to surrender".... I would never have been allowed to leave the scene.

Not knowing the details, it would seem that someone kept a cool head. Apparently they issued a warrant, notified him and allow him to surrender rather than sending a SWAT team to initiate a confrontation with a trained and experienced police officer in his own home. It doesn't seem that he is much of a flight risk.

 

[BE Mike]

thats funny. i respect authority when they respect the authority they are entrusted with, and therefore me. calling out people in authority for abusing their power is just holding them accountible. just like they would me, if i ran a stop sign. We self police ourselves daily by allowing them to have the authority. saying people have contempt for authority is like saying "if I have nothing to hide i will let you search my car". I will first tell you politely NO. then if you persist i will tell you to go eff off, i dont care what authority you think you have, its not enough.

the moment we allow anyone in this country to have unchecked authority, is when we will lose the rest of our freedoms that havent already been stolen. people in "authoruty" who abuse it love the people who kiss ass and "go along" with anything and everything they say because that gives them ultimate authority. I dont need anyone in a badge, camo, a suit, etc, to give me permission to live my life a free man. I earned it by being born here.

I am disturbed that someone was killed in an accident reportedly by a drunk driver. Apparently a police officer at that. Unfortunately some people drive under the influence of drugs/ alcohol every day, many times with tragic consequences. I'm very glad that organizations like MADD have placed pressure on the legislatures, courts, and law enforcement officials to crack down on impaired drivers over the years.

E5Ranger: Of course I agree that we should demand accountability of those we place in positions of trust and authority. Serious matters need to be addressed. Those with a pattern of abusing authority need to get help finding new employment. On the other hand, we as citizens, have responsibilities. Some of those are to obey the law and legal orders. Personal freedom has legal limits, for example your freedom of speech doesn't extend to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I also think that when responsible citizens volunteer as witnesses and assist police, that are communities are better for it.

I never pointed anyone out specifically as having a deep-seated resentment of authority. Although I'm no psychologist, I have been told by those experts that there are those that have that as a character flaw. Some folks in our society routinely flaunt the law, thinking it is for others or they just don't agree with the law. They also are blind to the principle of personal responsibility. Many times they go around with a chip on their shoulder or "attitude". I don't have any more use for them than I do bad cops.

 

[BE Mike]

You must have forgotten what you typed, so I included it below. I would like to know how you consider it not to be a double standard that they "notified him and allowed him to surrender".... I would never have been allowed to leave the scene.

No, I'm old but not completely senile yet...at least I don't remember being senile. As I stated, I guess I don't follow all the topics you start faithfully. Was the druggie you are referring to a cop? Each case has it's own similarities and differences.

 

[downzero]

Huh?... Not a flight risk. HE IS A MURDERER, plain and simple. It's called VEHICULAR HOMICIDE. The INNOCENT GUY on the motorcycle was murdered. IMO, I would think someone who has commited a MURDER (and is still on the streets) might be a flight risk...

You might want to check your definition of murder again. I'm not sticking up for this guy, but what he did is not a murder outside of TV. Homicide is not the same thing as murder. Learn the difference.

Sorry....Garrity is something we cops are read not a rule we can invoke.

Care to explain this?

 

[Jay]

It could be that some are simply saying that while it's illegal to holler "FIRE" in a theater, the authorities should not have the right to gag everyone who enters......

Just my two cents....

 

[BE Mike]

It could be that some are simply saying that while it's illegal to holler "FIRE" in a theater, the authorities should not have the right to gag everyone who enters......

Just my two cents....

I agree entirely with your view. Very good point and very well stated. It's a great country when we can state our views and beliefs openly without fear of reprisal. I guess we have Al Gore to thanks.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I am disturbed that someone was killed in an accident reportedly by a drunk driver. Apparently a police officer at that. Unfortunately some people drive under the influence of drugs/ alcohol every day, many times with tragic consequences. I'm very glad that organizations like MADD have placed pressure on the legislatures, courts, and law enforcement officials to crack down on impaired drivers over the years.

E5Ranger: Of course I agree that we should demand accountability of those we place in positions of trust and authority. Serious matters need to be addressed. Those with a pattern of abusing authority need to get help finding new employment. On the other hand, we as citizens, have responsibilities. Some of those are to obey the law and legal orders. Personal freedom has legal limits, for example your freedom of speech doesn't extend to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I also think that when responsible citizens volunteer as witnesses and assist police, that are communities are better for it.

I never pointed anyone out specifically as having a deep-seated resentment of authority. Although I'm no psychologist, I have been told by those experts that there are those that have that as a character flaw. Some folks in our society routinely flaunt the law, thinking it is for others or they just don't agree with the law. They also are blind to the principle of personal responsibility. Many times they go around with a chip on their shoulder or "attitude". I don't have any more use for them than I do bad cops.

I agree that personal freedoms have limits when it infrindges on others happiness and rights. but thats why we have laws in place. more laws than we obviously need, but thats another issue. i dont need a law to tell me that killing an innocent person is wrong and i should be punished for it. even criminals know its wrong, thats why they often try to cover it up. the law just allows us to try and keep them from doing it again. I dont care who you are, if you wanna break the law bad enough or have no respect for others then nothing will prevent you from doing it (as seen here with this officer). just be ready for the consequences.

I personaly have no problem voicing my opinions when i feel strongly about an authority issue, maybe im right sometimes, or maybe im wrong, and will change my mind after discussing it with others. As has happened here on INGO afew times, I have changed my possition on issues after hearing better facts.
I do realize that there are those who always wish to undermine authority and rule of law, but most of the time they will eventualy reap the consequences for their actions of breaking laws, and I like you have no use for them.
By your reply, i might have misjudged you alittle. I thought you were saying that everyone who questions authority is opposed to it. I personaly think that if you dont question authority and you just go along, then you are part of the problem (not you, but in general). If more people would question things then I dont believe we would be in dire straits with our country.

Also, for this officer to abuse his authority like this so blatently, I feel it in my opinion TOTALY IMPOSSIBLE to believe anyone who worked alongside him or was friends with him, that say they were unaware he had a problem. Alcoholics are not just screw ups because they are alcoholics. there are other severe personality warning signs that present themself in an alcoholics personality.

I know it will never happen, but I believe he should recieve the death penalty for what he did. as I also recomended for the drunk driver (non LEO) who killed a dear mentor and friend of mine who was also a state representative on his way back home from a late meeting at the state house. I still have the funeral program from his service, and it serves not only as a memorial to a great man, but also as a reminder that drinking and driving is murder.

 

[XMil]

I never pointed anyone out specifically as having a deep-seated resentment of authority. Although I'm no psychologist, I have been told by those experts that there are those that have that as a character flaw. Some folks in our society routinely flaunt the law, thinking it is for others or they just don't agree with the law. They also are blind to the principle of personal responsibility. Many times they go around with a chip on their shoulder or "attitude". I don't have any more use for them than I do bad cops.

There are a larger number of people with a with a more serious character flaw that have a blind obedience to authority. (ref. NAZI Germany, or the current state of the United States Gov.) I have even less use for them.

 

[BE Mike]

I agree that personal freedoms have limits when it infrindges on others happiness and rights. but thats why we have laws in place. more laws than we obviously need, but thats another issue. i dont need a law to tell me that killing an innocent person is wrong and i should be punished for it. even criminals know its wrong, thats why they often try to cover it up. the law just allows us to try and keep them from doing it again. I dont care who you are, if you wanna break the law bad enough or have no respect for others then nothing will prevent you from doing it (as seen here with this officer). just be ready for the consequences.

I personaly have no problem voicing my opinions when i feel strongly about an authority issue, maybe im right sometimes, or maybe im wrong, and will change my mind after discussing it with others. As has happened here on INGO afew times, I have changed my possition on issues after hearing better facts.
I do realize that there are those who always wish to undermine authority and rule of law, but most of the time they will eventualy reap the consequences for their actions of breaking laws, and I like you have no use for them.
By your reply, i might have misjudged you alittle. I thought you were saying that everyone who questions authority is opposed to it. I personaly think that if you dont question authority and you just go along, then you are part of the problem (not you, but in general). If more people would question things then I dont believe we would be in dire straits with our country.

Also, for this officer to abuse his authority like this so blatently, I feel it in my opinion TOTALY IMPOSSIBLE to believe anyone who worked alongside him or was friends with him, that say they were unaware he had a problem. Alcoholics are not just screw ups because they are alcoholics. there are other severe personality warning signs that present themself in an alcoholics personality.

I know it will never happen, but I believe he should recieve the death penalty for what he did. as I also recomended for the drunk driver (non LEO) who killed a dear mentor and friend of mine who was also a state representative on his way back home from a late meeting at the state house. I still have the funeral program from his service, and it serves not only as a memorial to a great man, but also as a reminder that drinking and driving is murder.

I think we agree more than we differ regarding these issues. I find that when reasonable folks, like gun owners, discuss matters, even though they are emotionally charged topics, in a civil manner, that more often than not they conclude that they really are pretty much on the same page.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I think we agree more than we differ regarding these issues. I find that when reasonable folks, like gun owners, discuss matters, even though they are emotionally charged topics, in a civil manner, that more often than not they conclude that they really are pretty much on the same page.

Agreed.

 

[Jay]

It's a great country when we can state our views and beliefs openly without fear of reprisal.

Most folks do, in fact, subscribe to that concept, but there are those who do not.

Variety, and all that....

 

[MinuteMan47]

You might want to check your definition of murder again. I'm not sticking up for this guy, but what he did is not a murder outside of TV. Homicide is not the same thing as murder. Learn the difference.

Sorry there Billy BadAss...

The point was that HE (a LEO) was NEGLIGENT in his duties and caused the DEATH of an INNOCENT person. I apologize for not going to law school and knowing the difference between murder and homicide off the top of my head. Next time I will be sure to research before I post.

As a LEO he KNEW the risks and possible consequences associated with drinking and driving...He still thought about it and chose to get behind the wheel and killed someone as a result...premeditated?

 

[BE Mike]

There are a larger number of people with a with a more serious character flaw that have a blind obedience to authority. (ref. NAZI Germany, or the current state of the United States Gov.) I have even less use for them.

I don't see your argument here. The state of affairs in Germany prior to WWII that enabled Hitler to take power and continue with his efforts to engage in genocide and take over the world really wasn't because of character flaws of individuals in the population IMHO. I also can't agree that the current state of affairs, although not good can be compared to Nazi Germany. There will always be some who blindly follow authority and some who always resent any authority. These are individuals with personal traits. I don't have any serious concerns that the citizens of the United States are marching in lockstep. Neither do I think that we are approaching anarchy because a tidal wave of anti-authority thought is sweeping this country.

To keep this on topic, I'll just say that our legal system has plenty of flaws, but for the most part, I have faith in it. If you play with fire you will be burnt.

 

[XMil]

I'm not comparing us, or anybody to Nazi Germany, nice try. I'm merely pointing out, in that case, that millions of Jews were murdered because someone in authority wanted it done, and plenty of people blindly carried it out.

My point is that I think you are trying to equate distrust of authority with complete disrespect for authority, and they are not the same thing. People given power should be kept on the tightest leash possible, and watched very closely.

 

[Prometheus]

I still can't get over that .7 and coherent comment. How would you not be dead?

Actual I said .5 and coherent, .7 was conscious.

Work in a Level 1 trauma center for long enough and you see some very bizzare stuff. Many people would be dead at .7 or even .5 for some. It takes years of dedication to work up to that.

On the other side, I've seen a person with over 2 dozen gun shots, mainly in the chest and abdomen, varying in caliber from 9mm to .45 with the majority being .40s&w (shot by a mix of LEO's and all HP's) wheel thru our door, not only was the person coherent, they were fighting to come off the gurnery and all the way up to surgery.

 

[hornadylnl]

I wasn't at the scene of the accident so this is only my speculation.

I would think that if a non LEO caused a fatal accident, they would be given a drug and alcohol screen as soon as humanly possible regardless of the time of day. If the LEOs and first responders are attending to life saving care, that would obviously take precedence over administering a breathalizer to the person who caused the accident.

Now add that the party involved in the accident is a LEO. I would hope that the cop was right there in the mix with the other LEOs and first responders providing first aid care, making the scene as safe as possible, etc. Then add in the fact that we all generally assume that an officer is sober when he's at work. I could understand that most LEOs at the scene would not expect that alcohol was a factor.

I believe all that is forgivable of his fellow officers so long as they had no reason to believe he was drunk at the time or had an alcohol problem. I don't hang out with my coworkers outside of work but I do have a pretty good idea who likes to tie one on and who doesn't. If his fellow officers and superiors knew he had a problem and chose to do nothing, I feel they should bear some responsibility. Not necessarily legally but morally.

I do appreciate that this thread hasn't turned into a total flame war and has for the most part been really civil.

Here's a few questions on one of the proposed scenarios before.

It used to be quite popular in the Army several years ago to go out partying all night before and literally changing from your bar clothes in to your PT's and going straight to formation still drunk.

Let's assume that this cop even did a one time bender like that. What time did his shift start? Did he have to report to a meeting for the beginning of the shift? How many other officers did he interact with face to face before the accident? I don't know if you guys hop in your car at home and immediately go on patrol or if you have to report to your station or what.

Thanks again for the discussion here.

 

[IndyMonkey]

One time benders are sloppy drunk at .19.

 

[Cwood]

I wouldn't do him, but he's not ugly like CWood.

WTHE! Trying to get me more infractions aren't ya!

 

[Cwood]

Double Tap!