Do the 4 rules always apply?

[jcwit]

How do you folks check whether the barrel is clean on a Garand? Just wondering, after all it's always loaded.

I remember Sarge. used to look down the muzzle of the barrel. Never shot his eye out.

 

[pudly]

How do you folks check whether the barrel is clean on a Garand? Just wondering, after all it's always loaded.

Asked and answered.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But in the context of force-on-force training, they are not your buddies, I assume? (I would further assume that the conditions of the training account for the nature of the exercise, either using Simunitions, or something else suitable to ensure that you don't actually destroy your erstwhile buddies, play-acting as your enemies?)

So safety rules depend on if I pretend I'm willing to destroy something, not if I'm actually willing to destroy it?

No. The military realizes a certain number of people will be injured or die due to these violations. However, the realistic training will save more than it kills, there is no other way to do it, so the risk is accepted.

When I was at Ft. Riley, an Engineer lost his hand and another was killed in one of these scenarios. I can assure you the shooter was not willing to destroy his fellow soldiers.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

For those unwilling to have a blue gun pointed at them, fair warning, do not take my class. There are things I need to demonstrate and to have you watch from the perspective of 'the bad guy' and I use a blue gun to do that.

Prior to each demonstration I hold the blue gun up, have everyone verify it is a blue gun, then conduct the demonstration. If I set the blue gun down at any time and pick it back up, I repeat the verification.

Of course, I also played with toy guns as a kid and somehow never mixed up my Marlin .22 or Stevens 12g for a water pistol.

 

[chipbennett]

So safety rules depend on if I pretend I'm willing to destroy something, not if I'm actually willing to destroy it?

No. The military realizes a certain number of people will be injured or die due to these violations. However, the realistic training will save more than it kills, there is no other way to do it, so the risk is accepted.

When I was at Ft. Riley, an Engineer lost his hand and another was killed in one of these scenarios. I can assure you the shooter was not willing to destroy his fellow soldiers.

I can certainly accept that there is an exception to the Four Rules for military training, where required. I don't think that exception impacts civilians in any way, though.

For those unwilling to have a blue gun pointed at them, fair warning, do not take my class. There are things I need to demonstrate and to have you watch from the perspective of 'the bad guy' and I use a blue gun to do that.

Prior to each demonstration I hold the blue gun up, have everyone verify it is a blue gun, then conduct the demonstration. If I set the blue gun down at any time and pick it back up, I repeat the verification.

Of course, I also played with toy guns as a kid and somehow never mixed up my Marlin .22 or Stevens 12g for a water pistol.

So, I have no problem with that, either. One, you're not demonstrating/training on firearm handling while conducting that exercise. Two, you're respecting it as a live firearm, until you explicitly verify that it is not a live firearm.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

The four rules always apply. My son called me out couple years ago. He was 19. "Dad, you swept me twice - stop it." We were working on a FTF, the gun was unloaded, but he was right. Rule 1 - all guns are loaded. I apologized to the young man I taught everything he knows about gun safety, told him he was right and corrected my negligence.

Feelings are great. Breathing is better.

 

[JettaKnight]

The four rules always apply. My son called me out couple years ago. He was 19. "Dad, you swept me twice - stop it." We were working on a FTF, the gun was unloaded, but he was right. Rule 1 - all guns are loaded. I apologized to the young man I taught everything he knows about gun safety, told him he was right and corrected my negligence.

Feelings are great. Breathing is better.

"Rule" #1 was irrelevant, as always.
Rule #2 was what you broke.

 

[churchmouse]

The four rules always apply. My son called me out couple years ago. He was 19. "Dad, you swept me twice - stop it." We were working on a FTF, the gun was unloaded, but he was right. Rule 1 - all guns are loaded. I apologized to the young man I taught everything he knows about gun safety, told him he was right and corrected my negligence.

Feelings are great. Breathing is better.

My boys have become the safety NAZI's and I love it.

 

[bwframe]

There are always a few that are "too smart" for the rules.

 

[pudly]

There are always a few that are "too smart" for the rules.

Kirk?

 

[Wild Deuce]

*

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Since we want to be technical, rule 1 isn't needed if rules 2-4 are observed...so I broke them both.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

My boy is too and I love it too. I've heard him correct his hunting buddy before. They police each other. Just like their daddy's taught them.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Well I guess there's some difference in rules...

1 All guns are loaded
2 Muzzle discipline
3 Trigger discipline
4 Target Discipline

At least that's the first four in my house and when I teach gun safety.

 

[rhino]

For those unwilling to have a blue gun pointed at them, fair warning, do not take my class. There are things I need to demonstrate and to have you watch from the perspective of 'the bad guy' and I use a blue gun to do that.

Prior to each demonstration I hold the blue gun up, have everyone verify it is a blue gun, then conduct the demonstration. If I set the blue gun down at any time and pick it back up, I repeat the verification.

Of course, I also played with toy guns as a kid and somehow never mixed up my Marlin .22 or Stevens 12g for a water pistol.

I agree. Inert replicas are inert and are not firearms. If you choose to believe otherwise, it's your prerogative, but that does not change reality. The fact that some people mistake actual firearms for inert replicas does not change the reality that the replicas are incapable of firing any kind of projectile.

BBI is spot-on when he states that there are times when demonstrations require pointing the inert replica where you would not do the same with a gun. That's the reason why inert replicas exist - so you can do these things without pointing guns at people.

When I use an inert replica in a class, I offer to let anyone inspect it who wishes to do so. I also warn them that it may get pointed at them and if they are uncomfortable with that, let me know and I'll avoid doing it to any who make the request. I do not recall anyone making the request, nor do I recall anyone in many Louis Awerbuck classes when he used essentially the same procedure (that's where I learned it).

If you don't like it, that that's your call. If you don't want to be in my classes because of that (or any other reason), your call again. If you want to apply the four rules or your version of them to inert replicas, knock yourself out (but be honest about it when you lapse in that application to an inert object, because I know some of you have and will). Just don't try to make me or anyone else believe that an inert replica is a gun. It's not.

 

[JettaKnight]

Since we want to be technical, rule 1 isn't needed if rules 2-4 are observed...so I broke them both.

This is what ATM and I have been saying for years now.

And, FTR, I always want to be technical.

 

[BugI02]

With all due respect, what is dumb is arguing over semantics, when everyone completely understands the principle of Rule #1.

Ding, Ding, Ding!

 

[BugI02]

Howz about ....

Well I guess there's some difference in rules...

1 [STRIKE]All guns are loaded[/STRIKE] Mental discipline (what Rule #1 really is)
2 Muzzle discipline
3 Trigger discipline
4 Target Discipline

At least that's the first four in my house and when I teach gun safety.

 

[2A_Tom]

OK so Jetta Knight, Bug 102, ATM and I are in a room I am holding a 1911A! (of course) I pull the slide back, peer in the ejection port and motion as though I'm feeling in the chamber with my finger.

Which one of you will take that gun place the muzzle to your head and pull the trigger?

I don't believe any of you would. Why? because Jeff Cooper says that every gun is loaded, until you personally clear it.

Never assume anything.

 

[bwframe]

OK so Jetta Knight, Bug 102, ATM and I are in a room I am holding a 1911A! (of course) I pull the slide back, peer in the ejection port and motion as though I'm feeling in the chamber with my finger.

Which one of you will take that gun place the muzzle to your head and pull the trigger?

I don't believe any of you would. Why? because Jeff Cooper says that every gun is loaded, until you personally clear it.

Never assume anything.

No, they'ed argue with you until you put the gun to your own head...