Do the 4 rules always apply?

[BehindBlueI's]

OK so Jetta Knight, Bug 102, ATM and I are in a room I am holding a 1911A! (of course) I pull the slide back, peer in the ejection port and motion as though I'm feeling in the chamber with my finger.

Which one of you will take that gun place the muzzle to your head and pull the trigger?

I don't believe any of you would. Why? because Jeff Cooper says that every gun is loaded, until you personally clear it.

Never assume anything.

So if I personally clear it, I am fine to put it to my head and pull the trigger?

 

[SteveM4A1]

So if I personally clear it, I am fine to put it to my head and pull the trigger?

Well of course! Remember, it's unloaded, what could happen??!

 

[Zoub]

Rule #5. Don't be Jon-erik

 

[ATM]

OK so Jetta Knight, Bug 102, ATM and I are in a room I am holding a 1911A! (of course) I pull the slide back, peer in the ejection port and motion as though I'm feeling in the chamber with my finger.

Which one of you will take that gun place the muzzle to your head and pull the trigger?

I don't believe any of you would. Why? because Jeff Cooper says that every gun is loaded, until you personally clear it.

Never assume anything.

That doesn't make any sense at all, it's not even remotely the reason I wouldn't do that

The why is answered much more simply by reiterating that violating rule 2, 3 or 4 would be unsafe gun handling - even if I had personally just cleared it and knew it was unloaded.

Why would we be unsafe with a gun? Gun's only got one job.

 

[ATM]

I think it's a difference between Sensing versus Intuition on the Meyer-Bigg test.

ATM and I are firmly in the "S" camp. And everyone else is wrong.

Well... um, about that... I'm ENTP.

HOWEVER, I am firmly in the camp of most everyone else being wrong.

 

[Vigilant]

Force on force training whether Military, Police or civilian is conducted in a safe manner with Judges, ROs or instructors. I will admit that I have read a couple of articles where an officer training with their own sidearm with blue bullets, left the range, reloaded with real ammo and and shot a fellow officer not realizing they were no longer "playing". That is a case of operator headspace.

I will call BS on your called BS, it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to leave a "blue bullet" range, reload with live, and shoot anyone, "thinking" you're still playing! Simuntions(world's most popular), and all the newer versions have their own BARRELS THAT WILL NOT CHAMBER LIVE AMMO! So you are saying, someone left the training area, replaced their barrel, reloaded with live, CAME BACK TO TRAINING AREA, and shot someone? Please cite this?

 

[Vigilant]

Never, ever, ever, take a FOF class then! A lot of those are REAL GUNS, albeit neutered with sims, but still VERY real! And, omigosh, they are actually POINTED at YOU, and FIRED!

 

[MohawkSlim]

No. They don't always apply.

The 4 rules are very good practices to get into but it's quite silly to take pains to avoid sweeps once you've cleared a firearm. I've seen people handling firearms who've moved at weird and odd angles just to be sure they weren't sweeping themselves or others immediately after clearing. If two of you are standing there checking out a gun (like at the gun counter) and you both verify it's clear, there's no reason to spin around, touch your toes, and look like Neo from the Matrix just to show the other person you're not sweeping them.

Is there courtesy and etiquette involved in handling firearms? Absolutely. But there has to be some common sense too.

We're constantly telling anti-gunners how safe guns are and how they're just simple inanimate machines and yet here we are giving them some type of magical power simply because some pseudo-celebrity coined a few phrases. I'll pass off scissors to another person with the business end pointing towards me. Why not my gun?

I'll never be mad at folks for wanting to be safe but I will call into question their competence (both mental and physical) if they're not comfortable handling their firearm safely. "OMG this thing might could be loaded so I better point it straight up at the sky."

 

[NHT3]

Not surprisingly this went completely off the rails.. I did get an appreciated warning from Kirk. The question WAS, if or how YOU intervene if you witness someone sweeping themselves or other at a gun shop. If anyone has suggestions I"m still interested. It appears the 4 rules have almost been completely debated (again) and positions are taken and fortified.

“A liberal’s paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed already exist:

It's called Prison.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio

 

[88E30M50]

Rule #1 is beyond useless, the other 3 are valuable.

Your question illustrates my point.
The first "rule" sets people up to believe that the following three rules (the important ones) only apply to handling loaded guns.
Trying to convince people that their gun is loaded is not the answer. Teach them, rather, that unloaded guns are simply not an exception, not an excuse to ignore the 3 actual safe gun handling rules.
Teach them that all guns are always guns and should be handled as if they were guns. This loaded/unloaded nonsense is dangerous.

In my opinion, rule number one is the most important, but it needs explained to newbies. It's not saying that every gun is loaded even when you know it's not, but is trying to remove the distinction between the two states. As soon as someone thinks a gun is unloaded, they relax the rules and can become an idiot. The point of rule number one is to eliminate the distinction between the two. Remove the idea that an unloaded gun exists. The idea of an unloaded gun should be thought of no differently than the idea of a gun made of pixie dust that can only shoot unicorns. New shooters need to erase the very concept of an unloaded gun. That's all rule one is trying to do.

 

[2A_Tom]

So if I personally clear it, I am fine to put it to my head and pull the trigger?

LOL. Got me, but I can't rep you again. OK which one would be comfortable if I were to break the other three rules. After all they think I cleared it.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Howz about ....

I like it! Mental Discipline. Good.

There's more to treating all guns as loaded other than handling them. Where I place them and how...access...all of that. Just because my EDC is "unloaded" doesn't mean I leave it lying around for anyone to pick it up. Good point!

 

[ATM]

...New shooters need to erase the very concept of an unloaded gun. That's all rule one is trying to do.

Rule 1 failed. It was an interesting mental exercise, but there was nothing of real substance or value to it.

Soon thereafter, 3 instructive rules were added which cannot fail.

Why rule 1 was not abandoned at that time is unknown. It weakens rather than strengthens the rules which necessarily replaced it.

 

[bwframe]

No. They don't always apply.

The 4 rules are very good practices to get into but it's quite silly to take pains to avoid sweeps once you've cleared a firearm. I've seen people handling firearms who've moved at weird and odd angles just to be sure they weren't sweeping themselves or others immediately after clearing...

 

[JettaKnight]

Well... um, about that... I'm ENTP.

HOWEVER, I am firmly in the camp of most everyone else being wrong.

You're out of the club!

OK so Jetta Knight, Bug 102, ATM and I are in a room I am holding a 1911A! (of course) I pull the slide back, peer in the ejection port and motion as though I'm feeling in the chamber with my finger.

Which one of you will take that gun place the muzzle to your head and pull the trigger?

Sadly, this happens far too often. People prove Rule #1 to be a logical fallacy by unloading a gun, then since Rule #1 is invalidated, then rules #2-4 may subsequently be ignored.

I don't believe any of you would. Why? because Jeff Cooper says that every gun is loaded, until you personally clear it.

Wait, so, if I personally clear it, then it is unloaded? And then it's OK to do this stupid, stupid thing?

And why should I trust myself to clear a gun more than you or ATM? You've both got more trigger time than I. Can I not make a mistake when clearing a gun? I get the point about personal responsibility, but I want to emphasize we all make mistakes and should never, ever do something even remotely like this.


You've kind of proved my point - Rule #1 proven wrong, then Rules #2-4 may ignored.

Never assume anything.

Better - Never break the rules of safety.


I should explain before someone comes back on this - "Never break the rules", break one, sometimes necessary with common sense, no one dies; break all three...

 

[jamil]

There have been questions similar to this but after reading about the firearms instructor shooing the pastor and being at the range today the thought crossed my mind as to when to speak up where the 4 rules are concerned. They always apply for me personally but when you are at a shop and the person behind the counter sweeps you while handing someone else a gun do you say something? If you watch a customer or employee sweep themselves or each other do you step in and try to educate or just and look the other way? After seeing it happen once I just sat down and observed and was amazed at the stunning lack of firearm safety knowledge in the room. I wasn't sure what the correct course of action should be so I just did a lot of this and kept my mouth shut.. When I see it at Pararabellum I address it but in neutral territory, so to speak I was at a loss. Seems like there should be a simple answer or at least one that is reasonable but I certainly can't come up with anything.. What say you INGO?

Glock certified armorer- M&P Certified armorer
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]
Bright Firearms instructor traineeJ

Just getting to this thread. To me it's a mindset. If someone is handling a firearm in a way that makes me nervous, I'll say something then. However, if they're not meticulously following the mindset I try to have in a way that doesn't make me nervous, well, I'm not going to preach at them.

Ok, then: rhino is actually a good guy.

Quoted in case Kirk tries to erase the evidence.

I could see how it might end up on someone's sig line.

 

[jamil]

Well... um, about that... I'm ENTP.

HOWEVER, I am firmly in the camp of most everyone else being wrong.

Not sure why but that triggered a memory of 30 years ago, something I heard in one of those touchy, feely, "team-building" seminars employers used to send employees to. After doing the Myers/Brigs type test, the facilitator explained each type. After explaining ENTPs the guy sitting next to me said something like, so the difference between an ENTP and INTP is that one is an *******. After the laughter died down the facilitator said something like, well anyone can be one of those.

 

[rhino]

Rule #2 can be tough to observe in some real world situations. In those cases, you may have to pick the least (or a less) dangerous direction to point your muzzle.

 

[JettaKnight]

Jamil's post made me look up ENTP.


So I ask INGO, does this fit ATM?



EDIT: FYR, me.

 

[MohawkSlim]

Just sold a receiver to a guy over the gun counter.

We had three receivers out for him to select from and throughout the process, there were multiple sweeps of him, me, and everyone in the store. It's kind of amazing that no one was harmed since, according to some of you, it's so dangerous to sweep anyone with a firearm.

Tell me again how all those rules apply all the time?