Do the 4 rules always apply?

[ATM]

I agree completely, if we are talking about you, me or anyone else who has the other three so deeply ingrained in habituation that they OBEY them on a subconscious level.

However as most of the comments reflect how often the second is neglected and I will also say that the other two are not observed. I think it is important to ingrain the first. If i didn't believe the first it would, why would it be SO important to do the rest.

Your question illustrates my point.

The first "rule" sets people up to believe that the following three rules (the important ones) only apply to handling loaded guns.

Trying to convince people that their gun is loaded is not the answer. Teach them, rather, that unloaded guns are simply not an exception, not an excuse to ignore the 3 actual safe gun handling rules.

Teach them that all guns are always guns and should be handled as if they were guns. This loaded/unloaded nonsense is dangerous.

 

[pudly]

Thanks for posting these.

I agree that number 1 is the controversial one. I personally think it's only half of a rule because it can't actually be practiced.

Would you ever disassemble a gun while it is still loaded? I wouldn't. But I have disassembled each of my guns, so I've intentionally ignored that rule numerous times.

I would always put rule #1 as "Every gun is always loaded until you verify otherwise." But it was that variation that led me into a big argument in the past, so it's apparently not an uncontroversial variation.

I still like it as is and that's why I said it was wrong "intellectually". Intellectuals can often be concerned more with theory than real-world results. You don't want your safe gun handling to be an intellectual exercise, but something that is so ingrained that you really don't have to think about it and will still act safely even in the real world of human fallibility. Rule #1 makes you to take the other rules far more seriously. After all, if you "think the gun is unloaded", then rules #2 and #3 are irrelevant, right? Rule #1 is why you don't sweep people even if the gun is unloaded. It is why you perform multiple safety checks before you do any dry firing exercises. In practice, we know what humans make mistakes and it is still better to continue acting safely even if you "think the gun is unloaded".

Remember that it takes violating two rules to hurt someone. That is a safety margin. If you slip and violate one rule, then it is possible to have a negligent discharge, but no one will be hurt. Rules #2-4 are mechanical rules that you could program into a robot to make it safer with a gun. We aren't robots, but fallible humans and need #1 to set our mental state for safe gun handling.

Edit: Curse you, ATM! You beat me to my point.

 

[chipbennett]

Unless you are teaching a kid or something, I guess I just don't agree. A blue gun is not a gun. There is absolutely zero possible danger posed by them. It's less dangerous than a squirt gun.

I disagree. Practice makes permanent. You will act the way you practice. Therefore, treat a blue gun exactly the way you would treat an operational gun.

 

[2A_Tom]

Thanks for posting these.

I agree that number 1 is the controversial one. I personally think it's only half of a rule because it can't actually be practiced.

Would you ever disassemble a gun while it is still loaded? I wouldn't. But I have disassembled each of my guns, so I've intentionally ignored that rule numerous times.

I would always put rule #1 as "Every gun is always loaded until you verify otherwise." But it was that variation that led me into a big argument in the past, so it's apparently not an uncontroversial variation.

That is the short version of rule one. It is actually, Every gun is loaded, until you have personally cleared it. Once you lay down a fully assembled firearm when you pick it up you need to clear it.

Cooper's Four Rules

When I was at Ft. Lewis (86-88) I was support for an infantry unit going through MOUT live-fire training. When I was at Ft. Drum (89-91) I was an observer at the shoot house when they did live fire training.
Yes, the vast majority of training in these scenarios was done with blanks, but they did do live-fire exercises too.

I have bad knees but didn't know it until i kept having injuries during training. I was only an Infantryman for 7 months before being reclassified. In that time we used live ammunition mostly on the range, but once we did training in squad movement (bounding over watch) with live ammo. Alpha team would take cover and engage pop up targets while Bravo team bounded forward to new cover and begin to engage targets. Alpha team leader would then shout "Cover me Bravo" and his team would then bound forward. I was the one that was unsafe Because I covered more ground on my maximum 3 second bound and kept getting too far ahead of my team and in their line of fire. I made them call a ceasefire twice that day.

 

[chipbennett]

Blue guns aren't guns. They are plastic gun shaped objects. The 4 rules are for guns. Not things shaped like guns. Not holster molds, not pop tarts chewed into a gun shape, not squirt guns. Guns.

I think it depends on context. If the blue gun is being handled as a toy, then I agree. But if it is being used for firearms handling training, then it should be handled and treated exactly as one would handle and treat a live firearm.

Mechanically disabled or chamber flag. I've got a chamber flag that allows you to light up the chamber, two birds/one stone.

Now that's just cool. I need to find one of those.

 

[chipbennett]

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm off to my manicure. Said no lumberjack ever.

[video=youtube;5zey8567bcg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg[/video]

 

[chipbennett]

Ok, I am going to be "that guy."
I spent 8 years in the Army and guess what? We routinely broke the four rules during training. I was not in a combat MOS, so we didn't do it with live fire, but I know the combat MOS's did. You cannot realistically train in team/squad tactics without breaking the four rules, if you are you are not training realistically.
I'm sure S.W.A.T. and other groups do it as well.
Having answered the question in the title, I will say that in everyday life (not a specific training scenario) the four rules apply. I am no longer in the military, so I can see no circumstance that would require me to break the four rules.

In the context of force-on-force training: which of the four rules were you breaking? Was your target not something that you were willing to destroy?

 

[bwframe]

I don't agree, it's a matter of training.. There's a glaring difference between a squirt gun, blue gun, as BehindblueIs said, a pop tart chewed into the shape of a gun and a Glock 17. It doesn't take a lot of training to know the difference. It's akin to the argument that because a Glock doesn't have an active safety and it has to be dry fired to be taken apart it's unsafe. Training tells us the difference between active and passive safeties and the obvious step of clearing any firearm before dry firing. Anyone that doesn't grasp that concept shouldn't be allowed access to a pop tart.
The SIRT pistol I use in my newbie classes is probably the best training aid I have. I don't point it at anyone but it is a great aid in teaching grip and sight alignment prior to going in the range where speech is often drowned out by gunfire. We also use SIRT pistols in our advanced training classes, so far without incident. To respond to another post, try teaching grip and sight alignment by pointing your finger.. I have a pretty elaborate powerpoint where grip, sight alignment and sight picture are concerned but there are always some that don't get the concept until I put a SIRT in their hand and have them align the sights and pull the trigger.
Training is the answer, not banning squirtguns. How to get people to understand that lacking training makes them dangerous is the question. It seems questions are much easier to come by than answers.

“A liberal’s paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed already exist:

It's called Prison.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio

Were not far apart. I'm a believer in training tools and that they should be treated as tools. Not horsed around with like toys.

Kids learn their gun handling either on their own or from their parents. As gun owners, I feel we should be teaching our children proper gun handling as opposed to playing with guns. Water guns are fun as long as they don't closely mimic real firearms. In my house, if something looks like a real gun, it IS a real gun. It gets treated accordingly.

 

[JettaKnight]

That's not completely true. Like the girl getting the gun out of her purse who shot the husband.... because the trigger of her Glock caught something in her purse. Both were police officers I believe. Glocks just go off anyways and she should have known that. If she had a Springfield 1911 in her purse that never would have happened.

Every gun is loaded... ALWAYS!

Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction - ALWAYS!
(Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to completely destroy)

Keep your finger off the trigger until willing to shoot -- ALWAYS!
(Keep your finger on the frame until your sights are on the target and you are willing to shoot)

Keep the gun unloaded until ready to use - ALWAYS!
(Concealed carry and home defense ARE USE. The "SPIRIT" of the rule: Don't keep your deer rifle over in the corner loaded, or your bird gun under the couch loaded, etc. It is acceptable to have multiple defense guns loaded and strategically placed as long as unauthorized persons cannot access them.)

Know your target and what is beyond it. (Not one of the primary 4, but VERY important.) All you have to do is watch people putting rounds into the floors, ceilings, and walls at the range!

The rules apply - ALWAYS!

The two statements in red [empasis added] are opposites. That is to say you can't keep a gun unloaded if every gun is loaded.

Plus, "Every gun is loaded" is just plain dumb.

1. There's no action associated with it. It's just a statement, what I choose to do with that information is left up to me. And I choose to focus on the logical fallacy of it and then not alter my behavior.
2. That brings me to the fact is it is a huge logical fallacy. Everyone five years and up know it's fanciful statement, yet we still sling it around without any regard to what it actually means.
3. Before you explain it to me (as if no one has), I'll add that if a safety rule requires explaining it's a dumb rule.
4. And it is is ALWAYS loaded, then how exactly do I field strip a handgun that requires pulling the trigger? Sure I use a sand barrel, but if it's always loaded, then my neighbors will hear and...
5. When the RO calls to unload all guns and make them safe, do I raise my hand and yell "I CAN'T DO THAT - EVERY ONE OF MY GUNS IS ALWAYS LOADED!"

Actually, yes, I do want others to explain the mental gymnastics they do to deal with this.

 

[TheWabbit]

I don't get the controversy over treating the blue gun as real. If you treat a blue gun as a fake or toy, this type of thing will happen.

"Police tell station KOVR it's unclear at this point whether the instructor believed he was using the mock gun he had been using to teach the class."

If you are going to point blue guns at me, you will not be my instructor.

 

[indiucky]

I worked behind a gun counter for years and I can tell you that you have no idea how bad this problem is. It's bad. It's nationwide.......

Par for the course..

 

[pudly]

Actually, yes, I do want others to explain the mental gymnastics they do to deal with this.

Already done. Please read my comment above: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-firearms-discussion/400602-do-4-rules-always-apply-7.html#post6239414

 

[JettaKnight]

I agree that number 1 is the controversial one. I personally think it's only half of a rule because it can't actually be practiced.

It's not controversial, it's dumb. And you're right, there's nothing to put into practice. It's like saying, "Stepping out of an airplane always leads to long, long fall."

Would you ever disassemble a gun while it is still loaded? I wouldn't. But I have disassembled each of my guns, so I've intentionally ignored that rule numerous times.

So you ignored the rule?!!!

I would always put rule #1 as "Every gun is always loaded until you verify otherwise." But it was that variation that led me into a big argument in the past, so it's apparently not an uncontroversial variation.

That's what is said after every ND - "I thought it was unloaded! I even checked before I closed the slide [on a full magazine]."

 

[JettaKnight]

Already done. Please read my comment above: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...02-do-4-rules-always-apply-7.html#post6239414

I think it's a difference between Sensing versus Intuition on the Meyer-Bigg test.

ATM and I are firmly in the "S" camp. And everyone else is wrong.

 

[chipbennett]

The two statements in red [empasis added] are opposites. That is to say you can't keep a gun unloaded if every gun is loaded.

Plus, "Every gun is loaded" is just plain dumb...

Actually, yes, I do want others to explain the mental gymnastics they do to deal with this.

With all due respect, what is dumb is arguing over semantics, when everyone completely understands the principle of Rule #1.

 

[chipbennett]

I think it's a difference between Sensing versus Intuition on the Meyer-Bigg test.

ATM and I are firmly in the "S" camp. And everyone else is wrong.

I'm sure you'll not be surprised to learn that I'm an N (ENTJ).

 

[pudly]

I think it's a difference between Sensing versus Intuition on the Meyer-Bigg test.

ATM and I are firmly in the "S" camp. And everyone else is wrong.

As am I. Therefore, I'm right as well.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In the context of force-on-force training: which of the four rules were you breaking? Was your target not something that you were willing to destroy?

Yeah, generally you are unwilling to destroy your buddies.

 

[chipbennett]

Yeah, generally you are unwilling to destroy your buddies.

But in the context of force-on-force training, they are not your buddies, I assume? (I would further assume that the conditions of the training account for the nature of the exercise, either using Simunitions, or something else suitable to ensure that you don't actually destroy your erstwhile buddies, play-acting as your enemies?)

 

[jcwit]

I know a person who strips down a 1911 and still is afraid to look down the barrel from the muzzle.