Do the 4 rules always apply?

[Drail]

I worked behind a gun counter for years and I can tell you that you have no idea how bad this problem is. It's bad. It's nationwide.......

 

[2A_Tom]

How to put FFLs out of business... Make it illegal to sell to anyone who sweeps an employee or a customer.

 

[bwframe]

...My kids (all grown now) all shoot. They never had toy guns growing up because I didn't want them getting used to pointing something that looked like a gun at something they were not willing to destroy...

This is how we begin to to solve this problem. ^^^

 

[bwframe]

I worked behind a gun counter for years and I can tell you that you have no idea how bad this problem is. It's bad. It's nationwide.......

Just go to the 1500. It's gotta be worse there.

 

[pudly]

Carson owned Hugh.

Maybe, but what's his stance on the four rules?

 

[bwframe]

Maybe, but what's his stance on the four rules?

I never said that. You made that up!

 

[jmpupillo]

The worst gun shop experience I've had is standing at the counter and a guy wanting to sell his revolver unholsters with his right hand and cradles it in his left. I look and can see the hollow points in the cylinder pointing in my direction. I was out the door pretty quiqkly.

Good Lord! That's a bad one. I would've been heated

 

[jcwit]

Wonder how we ever got to this point without most firearm enthusiast's being shot in some way.

A firearms barrel always, yes always, points at something or someone!

No way around it.

 

[pudly]

Wonder how we ever got to this point without most firearm enthusiast's being shot in some way.

Accidental firearm deaths & injuries have dropped dramatically over the years. The NRA (which has a long history of teaching gun safety) is part of it. The four rules are a part of it. Hunter safety classes are part of it. Improved hardware safety technology (like drop safeties) have reduced injuries/death.

 

[Bill B]

Ok, I am going to be "that guy."
I spent 8 years in the Army and guess what? We routinely broke the four rules during training. I was not in a combat MOS, so we didn't do it with live fire, but I know the combat MOS's did. You cannot realistically train in team/squad tactics without breaking the four rules, if you are you are not training realistically.
I'm sure S.W.A.T. and other groups do it as well.
Having answered the question in the title, I will say that in everyday life (not a specific training scenario) the four rules apply. I am no longer in the military, so I can see no circumstance that would require me to break the four rules.

 

[SSGSAD]

I was hoping for someone to tell me something I don't already know
Glock certified armorer- M&P Certified armorer
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]
Bright Firearms instructor trainee

I thought you knew everything ?????

 

[ATM]

Rule #1 is beyond useless, the other 3 are valuable.

 

[CampingJosh]

Rule #1 is beyond useless, the other 3 are valuable.

What is the rule number 1 that you find worthless? I ask because I've seen several variations, and some of them make more sense than others.

 

[pudly]

What is the rule number 1 that you find worthless? I ask because I've seen several variations, and some of them make more sense than others.

These are the commonly referenced 4 rules: Colonel Jeff Cooper's Four Rules of Gun Safety. You may see minor variations in wording, but this is the version that I prefer.

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

They are simple to learn and very effective. Violating one rule may result in a negligent discharge. It takes violating at least two before someone can be hurt.

As you can see, #1 is the most controversial. It is simple, but awkwardly worded because intellectually, you know it isn't true. It is important to treat the gun as if it is always loaded. Too many have been hurt/killed when someone "thought the gun was empty". If you make it a habit to treat it as always loaded, then you won't get casual about safety and do something stupid like point the "empty" gun at someone or pull the trigger.

It is worth drilling these in until they are entirely second nature. There are other lists of gun rules, but this is the best known.

 

[numbaonecoltsfan]

What's a groupon kid?

Terribly sorry but I do no have all if the details...What I understand is that they were running a deal on groupon where you could come in and shoot all manner of rental guns over some period of time. Seems like a great time for some beginners to learn the 4 rules but they were super busy that saturday afternoon and while waiting for their "instructor" these people broke the rules repeatedly.

 

[NHT3]

This is how we begin to to solve this problem. ^^^

I don't agree, it's a matter of training.. There's a glaring difference between a squirt gun, blue gun, as BehindblueIs said, a pop tart chewed into the shape of a gun and a Glock 17. It doesn't take a lot of training to know the difference. It's akin to the argument that because a Glock doesn't have an active safety and it has to be dry fired to be taken apart it's unsafe. Training tells us the difference between active and passive safeties and the obvious step of clearing any firearm before dry firing. Anyone that doesn't grasp that concept shouldn't be allowed access to a pop tart.
The SIRT pistol I use in my newbie classes is probably the best training aid I have. I don't point it at anyone but it is a great aid in teaching grip and sight alignment prior to going in the range where speech is often drowned out by gunfire. We also use SIRT pistols in our advanced training classes, so far without incident. To respond to another post, try teaching grip and sight alignment by pointing your finger.. I have a pretty elaborate powerpoint where grip, sight alignment and sight picture are concerned but there are always some that don't get the concept until I put a SIRT in their hand and have them align the sights and pull the trigger.
Training is the answer, not banning squirtguns. How to get people to understand that lacking training makes them dangerous is the question. It seems questions are much easier to come by than answers.

“A liberal’s paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed already exist:

It's called Prison.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio

 

[2A_Tom]

Good Lord! That's a bad one. I would've been heated

Actually I did Make my Ire Known to the employee and customers as i moved out of danger.

Accidental firearm deaths & injuries have dropped dramatically over the years. The NRA (which has a long history of teaching gun safety) is part of it. The four rules are a part of it. Hunter safety classes are part of it. Improved hardware safety technology (like drop safeties) have reduced injuries/death.

Ok, I am going to be "that guy."
I spent 8 years in the Army and guess what? We routinely broke the four rules during training. I was not in a combat MOS, so we didn't do it with live fire, but I know the combat MOS's did. You cannot realistically train in team/squad tactics without breaking the four rules, if you are you are not training realistically.
I'm sure S.W.A.T. and other groups do it as well.
Having answered the question in the title, I will say that in everyday life (not a specific training scenario) the four rules apply. I am no longer in the military, so I can see no circumstance that would require me to break the four rules.

I have to call Bull on this, I Was an infantryman for a short time and trained intensively. When we trained with Live ammo all 4 rules were observed at all times even we didn't know them in those terms. When we trained with blanks all rifles, machine guns were equipped with blank adapters and supplied with ONLY blanks. Force on force training whether Military, Police or civilian is conducted in a safe manner with Judges, ROs or instructors. I will admit that I have read a couple of articles where an officer training with their own sidearm with blue bullets, left the range, reloaded with real ammo and and shot a fellow officer not realizing they were no longer "playing". That is a case of operator headspace.

Rule #1 is beyond useless, the other 3 are valuable.

I agree completely, if we are talking about you, me or anyone else who has the other three so deeply ingrained in habituation that they OBEY them on a subconscious level.

However as most of the comments reflect how often the second is neglected and I will also say that the other two are not observed. I think it is important to ingrain the first. If i didn't believe the first it would, why would it be SO important to do the rest.

When I was around 21 I got a buddy shooting. One day he picked up a BB pistol and shot me in the arm. I said "you shot me." He said " No i didn't, it's not loaded." I said "Then why is blood running down my arm. I taught you every gun is loaded." the good thing is that I had cleared and cleaned my Super Blackhawk .44 Mag. that was laying next to the BB pistol.

I don't agree, it's a matter of training.. There's a glaring difference between a squirt gun, blue gun, as BehindblueIs said, a pop tart chewed into the shape of a gun and a Glock 17. It doesn't take a lot of training to know the difference. It's akin to the argument that because a Glock doesn't have an active safety and it has to be dry fired to be taken apart it's unsafe. Training tells us the difference between active and passive safeties and the obvious step of clearing any firearm before dry firing. Anyone that doesn't grasp that concept shouldn't be allowed access to a pop tart.
The SIRT pistol I use in my newbie classes is probably the best training aid I have. I don't point it at anyone but it is a great aid in teaching grip and sight alignment prior to going in the range where speech is often drowned out by gunfire. We also use SIRT pistols in our advanced training classes, so far without incident. To respond to another post, try teaching grip and sight alignment by pointing your finger.. I have a pretty elaborate powerpoint where grip, sight alignment and sight picture are concerned but there are always some that don't get the concept until I put a SIRT in their hand and have them align the sights and pull the trigger.
Training is the answer, not banning squirtguns. How to get people to understand that lacking training makes them dangerous is the question. It seems questions are much easier to come by than answers.

“A liberal’s paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns.
And believe it or not, such a place does indeed already exist:

It's called Prison.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio

You may train in any manner you wish. My kids played (I know this is not PC and I'm glad) Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers and Army. They Used brooms and long sticks as rifles short sticks as pistols and dirt clods as hand grenades. They had slingshots and BB guns and were taught that these were real weapons that could do real damage.

 

[NHT3]

I thought you knew everything ?????

You've commented fourfold compared to me so I'm sure you are much more enlightened BUT the Dali Lama assured me I would receive total enlightenment on my death bed. Up to that point I'm still in the training loop.

 

[CampingJosh]

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Thanks for posting these.

I agree that number 1 is the controversial one. I personally think it's only half of a rule because it can't actually be practiced.

Would you ever disassemble a gun while it is still loaded? I wouldn't. But I have disassembled each of my guns, so I've intentionally ignored that rule numerous times.

I would always put rule #1 as "Every gun is always loaded until you verify otherwise." But it was that variation that led me into a big argument in the past, so it's apparently not an uncontroversial variation.

 

[Bill B]

I have to call Bull on this, I Was an infantryman for a short time and trained intensively. When we trained with Live ammo all 4 rules were observed at all times even we didn't know them in those terms. When we trained with blanks all rifles, machine guns were equipped with blank adapters and supplied with ONLY blanks. Force on force training whether Military, Police or civilian is conducted in a safe manner with Judges, ROs or instructors. I will admit that I have read a couple of articles where an officer training with their own sidearm with blue bullets, left the range, reloaded with real ammo and and shot a fellow officer not realizing they were no longer "playing". That is a case of operator headspace.

When I was at Ft. Lewis (86-88) I was support for an infantry unit going through MOUT live-fire training. When I was at Ft. Drum (89-91) I was an observer at the shoot house when they did live fire training.
Yes, the vast majority of training in these scenarios was done with blanks, but they did do live-fire exercises too.