Dennys Not So Great

[Ted]

It is NOT reasonable to assume an LTCH is forged, invalid or not issued to the person presenting same, without meaningful evidence of such an assertion.

It may seem like a handy tactic to abuse, but is no more reasonable than it would be for me to assume the person accosting me is impersonating an officer.

Thus is why I used the phrase, "reasonably articulate".

 

[Dirtebiker]

How would he know he is legal if he doesn't check his LTCH?

I'd just show it to shut him up and threatening him to cover it up after doing so, yeah.. I'd have a serious problem with that!

If asked, I will show my LTCH. But WHY did he ask? He's in there eating breakfast and just figures he needs to get into someone else's business? And then threaten to arrest the guy if he doesn't cover his gun?

 

[Jack Burton]

Again, per the statute presented, the point made was that LE that can reasonably articulate the LTCH to be a:

• forgery,
• not issued to the person presenting same,
• or otherwise invalid,

can require photo ID.

And you're still wrong. "reasonably" means "must have a reason" If the cop doesn't like the way Indiana issues licenses he needs to take that up with the state. His dislike gives him no reason to believe that every LTC he runs into is a forgery or otherwise not valid.

 

[Ted]

And you're still wrong. "reasonably" means "must have a reason" If the cop doesn't like the way Indiana issues licenses he needs to take that up with the state. His dislike gives him no reason to believe that every LTC he runs into is a forgery or otherwise not valid.

Not exactly what I said, but you do tend to do that. So I guess I'll do it now, too.

Oh wow. So LE can't exercise reasonable discretion if some scribbles "Indiana LTCH" on a pink sheet of paper with a crayon.

Good job with that, Jack.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Because there is no photograph, and the relative ease that a person may counterfeit an Indiana LTCH.........They'll find something to ask for it.

Ask for what? You never have to show your Drivers License in Indiana unless you are in fact operating a vehicle. All the statute says is name, DOB, and address OR Drivers License if in one's possession.

If they think your LTCH is a forgery or otherwise invalid they call your info in from your LTCH to Information on their radios. If they get a match then they have no more reason to doubt its authenticity.

 

[Ted]

Ask for what? You never have to show your Drivers License in Indiana unless you are in fact operating a vehicle. All the statute says is name, DOB, and address OR Drivers License if in one's possession.

If they think your LTCH is a forgery or otherwise invalid they call your info in from your LTCH to Information on their radios. If they get a match then they have no more reason to doubt its authenticity.

The last I heard, Indiana does not have a 24/7 verification.

Its a large reason why some other states will not offer recognition/reciprocity.

But honesty, there is a fairly vague physical description on the LTCH. I know a few people that fit my description. This is the basis for my argument.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

What does one do, if after giving them the LTCH they also ask for your driver's license? Am I required to give that to them? They are going to argue they need to verify you are who is on the LTCH. Does the law support their request?

You are not required to give them any other ID. Unless you are driving, you are not required to carry any ID at all. (some exceptions may apply such as flying on an aircraft/entering certain federal buildings, etc.)

Because there is no photograph, and the relative ease that a person may counterfeit an Indiana LTCH.........They'll find something to ask for it.

IC 34-28-5-3
Detention
Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
(1) inform the person of the allegation;
(2) obtain the person's:
(A) name, address, and date of birth; or
(B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
(3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

Ted, see the parts I bolded in the IC you posted. You are not required to show ID/DL for any stop other than traffic. You are required to have your DL in your possession if you are driving. There is no other IC that states you have to have any ID on you. How can you be required to show it, when you don't have to have it? Also that only applies for an infraction/ordinance violation. Nothing else.

Also your LTCH will have at least 2/3rds of the information you are required to provide, it may not have your correct address. So if you moved and didn't pay for the updated LTCH you'll have to provide that separately.

Didnt see Ted's post before I replied. That makes things different :/

See above.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

The last I heard, Indiana does not have a 24/7 verification.

Its a large reason why some other states will not offer recognition/reciprocity.

But honesty, there is a fairly vague physical description on the LTCH. I know a few people that fit my description. This is the basis for my argument.

You are not completeing your argument. What are they going to get to further provide who you are? I do not carry my license on me unless I am actually driving. Do you think thye would arrest me or search me? Doubt it.

 

[Ted]

You are not completeing your argument. What are they going to get to further provide who you are? I do not carry my license on me unless I am actually driving. Do you think thye would arrest me or search me? Doubt it.

If....again "IF" the officer can articulate a reasonable argument for believing that you are not who you claim to be, are you telling me that the LEO cannot do anything?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

The last I heard, Indiana does not have a 24/7 verification.

Its a large reason why some other states will not offer recognition/reciprocity.

But honesty, there is a fairly vague physical description on the LTCH. I know a few people that fit my description. This is the basis for my argument.

Last I heard they do have 24/7 verification, I know mine was verified about 8pm on a Saturday night. It is also linked in the DMV database.

I've never heard that being any sort of reason for other states not offering reciprocity. I've heard lack of mandatory training, and issuing to 18 yr olds. And even TX didn't want to because we honor all other states/countries and they thought they would have to also. But BillofRights has a good write up about the various reasons in one of the stickies, I believe the reciprocity thread. I'll look for it and post it if I can find it.

And how does the vague description matter? That's more than is required under IC. All your required to provide and only when stopped for an ordinance/infraction is name/dob/address.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I've never heard that being any sort of reason for other states not offering reciprocity. I've heard lack of mandatory training, and issuing to 18 yr olds. And even TX didn't want to because we honor all other states/countries and they thought they would have to also. But BillofRights has a good write up about the various reasons in one of the stickies, I believe the reciprocity thread. I'll look for it and post it if I can find it.

Here is is.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._that_honor_indianas_ltch-25.html#post1940032

But there is at least one update to it, WI now issues a license/permit and honors ours. And OH might hopefully soon, legislation was passed in the house to honor all states, now it just needs to get passed in the senate and signed by the Govn.

 

[Mr. Habib]

Since my LTCH can, and has been used as ID at the DMV, how is my DL any more proof of my identity than my LTCH? Since one is not required to even HAVE a DL to obtain a LTCH, being required to show one in this situation would be stupid, even if it was not already illegal.

 

[Jack Burton]

Not exactly what I said, but you do tend to do that. So I guess I'll do it now, too.

Oh wow. So LE can't exercise reasonable discretion if some scribbles "Indiana LTCH" on a pink sheet of paper with a crayon.

Good job with that, Jack.

Best you can do, eh...

Noted that you actually can't give a "reasonable" reason other than the cop (and you) doesn't like the format.

 

[Rookie]

If....again "IF" the officer can articulate a reasonable argument for believing that you are not who you claim to be, are you telling me that the LEO cannot do anything?

Is false informing an infraction? Is it an ordinance violation?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

If....again "IF" the officer can articulate a reasonable argument for believing that you are not who you claim to be, are you telling me that the LEO cannot do anything?

Tell me what they would do. Do you have any idea? How would they articulate a disbelief when you give them your name, dob and address (which is all on your LTCH, BTW) which is all that is required by law?

 

[KG1]

Best you can do, eh...

Noted that you actually can't give a "reasonable" reason other than the cop (and you) doesn't like the format.

That's because it's strictly his opinion and he's to far into it now to admit it.

There is nothing in IC that requires you to prove by providing some sort of ID that your LTCH is valid and belongs to you.

 

[Rookie]

That's because it's strictly his opinion and he's to far into it now to admit it.

There is nothing in IC that requires you to prove by providing some sort of ID that your LTCH is valid and belongs to you.

Probably because an invalid license would, at the very least, be a misdemeanor?

 

[henktermaat]

The officer asked to see his PERMIT - which he correctly answered that he could not show him.



Sorry, that stuck me funny today.

 

[Ted]

Best you can do, eh...

Noted that you actually can't give a "reasonable" reason other than the cop (and you) doesn't like the format.

I just did give a reasonable reason. Someone who scribbled crayon on a pink piece of paper, with the words "indiana" and "LTCH".

You're the one that claims that is good enough.

Your best fails again.

 

[aikidoka]

Since my LTCH can, and has been used as ID at the DMV, how is my DL any more proof of my identity than my LTCH? Since one is not required to even HAVE a DL to obtain a LTCH, being required to show one in this situation would be stupid, even if it was not already illegal.

Is there something on the books or stated policy somewhere that the LTCH is valid ID? That would be helpful.