Dennys Not So Great

[KG1]

Fine. Riddle me this, Batman....as you all are so smart.

A police stops an individual after receiving a MWAG complaint from a citizen.

A LTCH is presented. The officer notes that the aforementioned document not match what he notes to be a legitimate LTCH, or the person presenting the LTCH does not match the description on the document, etc.

What is the officer's recourse at this point?

Okay riddle me this...Does the Pope **** in the woods? and if he does and a tree fell on him would anybody hear it?

 

[Rookie]

He can arrest the individual for carrying a handgun without a license. He cannot demand another form of ID.

 

[Ted]

He can arrest the individual for carrying a handgun without a license. He cannot demand another form of ID.

Okay, good.

Now, remember that this guy doesn't match the description on his LTCH.

Now what?

 

[Rookie]

Then he goes to jail as John doe, or he chooses to provide another form of id. The officer can't demand id or charge him with refusal.

 

[Ted]

Then he goes to jail as John doe, or he chooses to provide another form of id. The officer can't demand id or charge him with refusal.

John Doe? He provided his LTCH already.

He can't be a John Doe.

 

[Jack Burton]

John Doe? He provided his LTCH already.

He can't be a John Doe.

Can't have it both ways, Ted. Either the cop has reason to believe that it is not Fred Jones with the LTC, or the cop knows that it is Fred Jones with an LTC.

As noted, which you persist in ignoring, if the cop has reason to believe that the LTC is not valid then he can arrest the person with the gun.

He can certainly "ask" for other ID, but he cannot demand it without legal cause. He can lawfully ask and demand for the name, address, and birthday of someone whom he believes is or has been involved in unlawful activity but a verbal answer is all that is required to be given.

 

[Rookie]

SERIOUSLY?!? It's really not so hard to understand! I'll break it down and you tell me what you're confused about.

1.it's illegal to carry a handgun without a license.
2.an officer can ask for ltch to prove you are a proper person.
3.you're not required to give ltch. You won't be charged with "refusal to give ltch" but you're most likely getting a ride for carrying a gun without a license.
4.if the officer doubts the validity of your ltch, he can ASK for another form of id.
5. YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ANOTHER FORM OF ID UNLESS YOU'RE BEING CHARGED WITH AN INFRACTION OR ORDINANCE VIOLATION.
6. Since carrying without a license is, at the very least,a misdemeanor, the officer cannot charge you with "refusal to identify self"
7. How the officer proceeds is up to him (take you to jail, leave you alone, weep silently to himself, etc)

Just tell me which number (1-7) is confusing you.

 

[Rookie]

Can't have it both ways, Ted. Either the cop has reason to believe that it is not Fred Jones with the LTC, or the cop knows that it is Fred Jones with an LTC.

As noted, which you persist in ignoring, if the cop has reason to believe that the LTC is not valid then he can arrest the person with the gun.

He can certainly "ask" for other ID, but he cannot demand it as part of an arrest. He can lawfully ask and demand for the name, address, and birthday of someone whom he believes is or has been involved in unlawful activity but a verbal answer is all that is required to be given.

He can't lawfully demand any information unless you're being charged with an infraction or ordinance violation. Ever.

 

[Ted]

He can't lawfully demand any information unless you're being charged with an infraction or ordinance violation. Ever.

How about a crime?

 

[Rookie]

Nope. You can't be charged with refusal to identify self if you are being investigated or charged with a misdemeanor or felony.

 

[Ted]

Nope. You can't be charged with refusal to identify self if you are being investigated or charged with a misdemeanor or felony.

I'm not referencing the charge of refusal to identify. What about any other crime?

 

[Rookie]

Name one they could charge you with.

 

[Jack Burton]

He can't lawfully demand any information unless you're being charged with an infraction or ordinance violation. Ever.

The law doesn't say "charged." It merely says "stopped."

IC 34-28-5-3.5 Refusal to identify self Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:

(1) name, address, and date of birth; or

(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession; to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
************************
Once the LTC is provided and there is no other evidence [are you listening, Ted?] of an "infraction or ordinance violation" then there is no further need for a request for ID.

 

[Rookie]

You're right. Stopped not charged.

 

[tv1217]

So was this the one at the Flying J on Grant? I think I now have something to do on an uneventful weekend.

 

[wanakanabe]

So was this the one at the Flying J on Grant? I think I now have something to do on an uneventful weekend.

Yes that is the one. I have an appointment Wednesday morning with internal affairs to file a complaint.Not sure it's going to be worth all the hassle.

 

[stephen87]

Fine. Riddle me this, Batman....as you all are so smart.

A police stops an individual after receiving a MWAG complaint from a citizen.

A LTCH is presented. The officer notes that the aforementioned document not match what he knows to be a legitimate LTCH, or the person presenting the LTCH does not match the description on the document, etc.

What is the officer's recourse at this point?

Alright, I'll bite. You say the officer may ask for another form of ID if he does not believe you are who your LTCH says you are. However, you keep mentioning obviously forged documents. In one example the LTCH is nothing more than a pink piece of paper with Indiana LTCH scribbled in crayon. This example then turns into a tree of forging and carrying with no license, nothing about me not being me. Your next example is one that the officer notes is different from a typical LTCH, same deal here. At this point you are cuffed and most likely taken to jail. They will ask you to ID yourself and if you fail to provide the needed info of name/address/DOB you are taken to be, presumably, fingerprinted. If the LTCH looks to be legit, they have no reason to believe you are lying. If you do not match the description, they will obviously investigate. However, if you match the description, they hVe covered what they have to cover.

 

[Rookie]

He was losing so he quit.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Fine. Riddle me this, Batman....as you all are so smart.

A police stops an individual after receiving a MWAG complaint from a citizen.

A LTCH is presented. The officer notes that the aforementioned document not match what he knows to be a legitimate LTCH, or the person presenting the LTCH does not match the description on the document, etc.

What is the officer's recourse at this point?

If it doesn't match what he knows to be a legitimate LTCH, he can always call in the number on it to verify. I know of at least one attorney who recommends making copies to keep in your range bag/car/etc on plain white paper. It definitely doesn't match what looks like a legitimate LTCH. But an officer can call it in and verify that one has been issued and that it matches what's on the plain white paper.

There is an either appeals or IN supreme court case where the officer couldn't read the expiration date, the court ruled that that was no excuse for not calling it in to find out if it was expired or not. I believe it was either Washington or Richardson.

Now for your example of a piece of pink paper with LTCH scribbled on it with a crayon? Depends does it have the serial number on it so it can be verified?

Also your not required to carry your LTCH anymore, you used to have to but the language of the law was changed. They can verify if you have one issued to you by your name/dob/address.

How about a crime?

Except for infractions/ordinance violations, you cannot be compelled to ID yourself. There have been several court rulings to that effect in IN. Including if an officer wants your info because your a witness or possible witness to a crime.

I'm not referencing the charge of refusal to identify. What about any other crime?

None that I know of or have heard of in IN.

He was losing so he quit.

Seems I gave him that advice several of his posts ago.

 

[griffin]

thank you good sir!

You can get it for under $50 at amazon, too.