Daylight Saving Time

[chipbennett]

Why does even common sense have to have a link? We all can see for ourselves what time our society is really based on. While this group is broad based I believe we actually have a greater number of early risers represented here than in life overall.

When it is dark out folks just do not do as much as if it is lighter. That is just a fact of life. For years retailers have told me that their sales increase in the late part of the day after DST, real estate agents say evening showings on their homes for sale increases, folks are just more energetic if there is light later.

Yes, "common sense" requires evidence. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." The original argument for DST was the "common sense" argument that DST would save energy (electricity). That "common sense" argument has proven to be specious.

As for a comparison of productivity between 5AM and 6PM, it is not even possible for the public at large to be as productive in an overall sense. No business is open at that time to interact with to speak of. No banking, retail, most of the things that make a family run are just not there. No matter the daylight situation at 5AM, most folks are going to use that time to do a short list of things, some will sleep, get up and ready for work or school, commute to work, quite time before the day, and the like. See the theme? A few will use that 5AM time to exercise etc. I rarely commute at that time but when I do, no matter the light, few others are out moving yet. As a society we are not that active at 5AM.

Now on the flip side put that hour of daylight at 7PM and look at all the folks out recreating, running household errands, or meeting with friends. I you are a landscaper for instance, your clients would look at you like a crazy man if you suggested you would build a patio at 5AM. In fact it would be against noise ordinances, that typically run 8AM-8PM, but you can use that DST daylight to work at 7PM.

Just the limitations of options at 5AM make it a less productive for society overall time than 7PM when there is so many more things that can be done.

Definition: recreation is productive use of time to me...

I don't know why you're hung up on 5AM and 7PM. It is a false dichotomy. There is no point in time where the DST-vs-no-DST causes a decision between sunrise at 5AM and sunset at 7PM.

Under standard time, the only months of the year (mid-May to mid-July) at which sunrise would be as early as 5AM would have a commensurate sunset of 8:00 - 8:30. In other words, during that period, there is already at least an hour of sunlight left at 7PM. Conversely, DST ends right when sunset drops to 7PM, causing sunset to revert to 6PM. Sunrise shifts commensurately from 8AM to 7AM. DST resumes when sunset is 7PM (reverting to 8PM), with a commensurate shift in sunset from 7AM to 8AM.

If we eliminated DST entirely, you would get your 7PM sunset from approximately March through mid-September (while having a 5AM sunrise only from mid-May to mid-July). If we implemented DST permanently, you would get your 7PM sunset from mid-January through early November (while never having a 5AM sunrise).

If 5AM sunrise were the only/real problem, then we would only need DST from mid-May to mid-July. If 7PM sunset were the problem, then we should be applying DST from November into March.

Basically, you are arguing that DST should be applied to winter months, rather than summer months - which is exactly opposite of how it is used. Or, you're arguing for us to move to Central time.

 

[chipbennett]

I bet some of you here really hate having a whole extra day sandwiched in between February and March if you get fired up over an hour... LOL

Let's at least try to stick to good-faith arguments, eh?

 

[chipbennett]

I was curious so I just googled it. There are studies that suggest workers are more productive when exposed to natural light. However, that doesn’t suggest that DST makes people more productive. Some people claim that DST makes it worse. Decreases productivity, increases depression and anxiety, etcetera. And that seems more tied to changing the clock than being exposed to more sunlight. So then I googled that. One study did not find a difference in worker productivity after switching to DST, although they did find a 23% reduction in tardiness.

So it seems to me that sunlight can improve productivity, given the study, but apparently DST doesn’t tend to affect that much. Possibly because shifting the waking hours earlier doesn’t really add sunlight to one’s workday. And that’s my experience too. In the winter part of my workday is in the dark. DST or not only shifts which end of my workday is in the dark. In the summer it doesn’t matter. Sun is already up when I start, and is still up when I get home.

The study that talked about natural light seemed to be more about how to design the most productive workspaces. They’re saying that you want to design them to bring in as much natural light as possible.

This makes sense. We have a whole lot of epidemiological, anecdotal, and tribal knowledge, but not much in the way of empirical causation. There could be truth to those, but we really haven't documented it empirically.

 

[chipbennett]

One could be excused for reading this post and thinking that it could be said no better than this and expect this debate to die but alas we all know better. I've finally figured it out though., its a conspiracy by the popcorn growers guild. Without this semi annual torrent of lament they would soon be out of business.

Out curiosity when does the school year end now? Starting May 23rd there are about 68 days with sunset at or after 9 pm. Never later than 916 pm. So I was just wondering where it's still light out at 10 pm when the kids are going to bed and if there's no school the next day do they need to go to bed if it's still light out? Those times listed are for central Indiana.

As a kid, we didn't deal with DST. That wasn't instituted until I was (well) out of college - and at a time when I didn't even live in Indiana. But I remember lots of days at the bus stop in pitch black. I think the change in sunrise time is much more impactful to students than change in sunset time.

Now? We homeschool and I travel for work. When I'm home, I work from my home office. And during the summer, mid-July to early August, there is sunlight until almost 10:00. (The dawn/dusk period encompasses a good 30-45 minutes, during which the amount of sunlight is variable but present.) So, I notice when it is more difficult to fall asleep at night, and I notice when I'm working in the morning for an hour or more before I see any natural light. But my girls couldn't care less either way.

 

[chipbennett]

As computerized as everything is these days, I cannot see how that would be a problem today.

I work with people in all US timezones, Europe, and Asia. Time changes, standard time, DST, etc. - it's all immaterial.

 

[chipbennett]

What are the costs for butt-hurt people?

This minimizes the very real impact documented and referenced by Acateon. It is far more than mere "butt hurt." Again, good-faith arguments are helpful.

 

[chipbennett]

I find most people who don't like DST never dig into this issue to understand the other side.
Funny.
I was going to say the same thing about your argument.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to actaeon277 again."

 

[jamil]

It is what it is, get over it.

Half of the people are for it and half the people are against it, this could go on forever.

Well. Just until about 5K posts. Then of course there will be a new thread to go on.

 

[actaeon277]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to actaeon277 again."

I'm a very reputable guy.
Just ask my Mom.

 

[Ingomike]

Yes, "common sense" requires evidence. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." The original argument for DST was the "common sense" argument that DST would save energy (electricity). That "common sense" argument has proven to be specious.



I don't know why you're hung up on 5AM and 7PM. It is a false dichotomy. There is no point in time where the DST-vs-no-DST causes a decision between sunrise at 5AM and sunset at 7PM.

Under standard time, the only months of the year (mid-May to mid-July) at which sunrise would be as early as 5AM would have a commensurate sunset of 8:00 - 8:30. In other words, during that period, there is already at least an hour of sunlight left at 7PM. Conversely, DST ends right when sunset drops to 7PM, causing sunset to revert to 6PM. Sunrise shifts commensurately from 8AM to 7AM. DST resumes when sunset is 7PM (reverting to 8PM), with a commensurate shift in sunset from 7AM to 8AM.

If we eliminated DST entirely, you would get your 7PM sunset from approximately March through mid-September (while having a 5AM sunrise only from mid-May to mid-July). If we implemented DST permanently, you would get your 7PM sunset from mid-January through early November (while never having a 5AM sunrise).

If 5AM sunrise were the only/real problem, then we would only need DST from mid-May to mid-July. If 7PM sunset were the problem, then we should be applying DST from November into March.

Basically, you are arguing that DST should be applied to winter months, rather than summer months - which is exactly opposite of how it is used. Or, you're arguing for us to move to Central time.

This is the Indiana effect, it does not take into account that DST covers the whole time zone and will have different impacts across it.

It is most logical to talk about the time where the DST has the greatest impact over a DST season during which the timing and amount of daylight change. It was never about absolute as that changes daily.

Two pieces of evidence that few really care about changing DST are that DST is beneficial to a majority or there would be serious opposition to it and clamor to change it but the Feds just increased it, and this thread dies as soon as the few get over changing their clock.

 

[chef larry]

And it will still be dark when I wake up for work.

 

[femurphy77]

What side am I on again?

 

[COOPADUP]

The psychological effects of losing just one hour of weekend time is devastating.

 

[Ziggidy]

DST while in the Eastern Zone is killing me.

 

[churchmouse]

What side am I on again?

Need a poll.

Yes I feel the effects of the time change but enjoy the benefits.

 

[ATM]

Need a poll.

Yes I feel the effects of the time change but enjoy the benefits.

Wait. Benefits?

What actual benefits are there to enjoy about changing everything twice per year just to have less light in the evenings for 4 winter months?

I thought you were one who preferred more light in the evenings?

If there is some reason to perpetually keep switching everything back and forth despite the associated costs, I'd still love to hear it.

I don't believe any such reasoning or benefits exist.

nomnomnom

 

[churchmouse]

Wait. Benefits?

What actual benefits are there to enjoy about changing everything twice per year just to have less light in the evenings for 4 winter months?

I thought you were one who preferred more light in the evenings?

If there is some reason to perpetually keep switching everything back and forth despite the associated costs, I'd still love to hear it.

I don't believe any such reasoning or benefits exist.

nomnomnom

So there..…

 

[KellyinAvon]

Wait. Benefits?

What actual benefits are there to enjoy about changing everything twice per year just to have less light in the evenings for 4 winter months?

I thought you were one who preferred more light in the evenings?

If there is some reason to perpetually keep switching everything back and forth despite the associated costs, I'd still love to hear it.

I don't believe any such reasoning or benefits exist.

nomnomnom

(borrowing from a fellow INGOer) Does this mean you saw your shadow and we get another 2 weeks of winter?

 

[churchmouse]

OK......When I get to set out on the deck with my spouse, and the kids are in the pool and running amok in the back yard...….at 9:00 in the evening in good light......that's a benefit. We don't do that crap in the winter. We set out there on occasion when the wind is down and the gas fireplace offers a bit of relief but that is not often.

When we can work on outdoor projects until 9:00 in good light....well, you know.

Far less time wasted. At least for us anyway. How you all spend this daylight is your business.

Take from that what you will.

 

[Mgderf]

I've seen studies that say medical professionals see an increase in heart attacks just after switching times in either direction.
Don't know how much validity to attribute to these studies, but that's what they say.