Crazy ER Stories: Caliber Effectiveness on the Street

[hoosierdoc]

Ru44mag, plenty of people are killed with a .22lr. Your .380 will stop most people most of the time if you can hit your target. If you're looking for a round that will stop everyone every time, you need to drive a tank.

Find something you shoot well, carry well, and are comfortable with and then keep your situational awareness up so you don't have to use it.

 

[ru44mag]

With all my years of experience deer hunting, I know the only way to drop something right now is to hit the CNS. Spine or brain. I work on a psych ward and feel I can handle myself pretty well. I have a theory. I figure if I put a few holes in someone, I can probably take 'em. lol

 

[ru44mag]

Ru44mag, plenty of people are killed with a .22lr. Your .380 will stop most people most of the time if you can hit your target. If you're looking for a round that will stop everyone every time, you need to drive a tank.

Find something you shoot well, carry well, and are comfortable with and then keep your situational awareness up so you don't have to use it.

Seriously. That is the best advice I've heard for a while. Thanks.

 

[ru44mag]

And just in case some one was thinking it. I don't carry at work.

 

[Aaron1776]

After spending a lot of time reading all this info, I feel kinda stupid. I bought a LCP, a TCP and a P238. They are not as accurate as my Mark II, Mark III or My High Standard Sport King, but I can shoot nice groups at 10 yards with all three .380s. Now I feel like It would be better if I just threw them at the BG rather than shoot them. Thing is I can carry My Ruger Super Blackhawks into the woods when hunting. Or my HP or one of my .357s out back or at the range, but when I go to the grocery store, the only thing I feel comfortable carrying is the little .380s. I guess I need to do some research on holsters.

Just remember that whenever you select a caliber/cartridge you need to know the effectiveness and capabilities of the round. If you want to carry a .380, that's fine. Just know that you either need to gamble your life on doing a full mag dump on the BG (and I don't care who tells you otherwise, that is a gamble), or you need to shoot him in the brainstem. So the choice becomes a question of training. Will you train to the point where you can land that face shot or do that mag dump quickly? OR should you upgrade to a bigger round with more penetration where you can stop them more reliably with a controlled pair to the chest? I say "more reliably" because nothing is ever certain. Carry the biggest caliber that you can hit with and are comfortable carrying. If size is the issue for you in CC, there are a ton of 9mms that are just as small as the .380 platforms and shoot just as well. Also, you may want to consider OCing that .357. I actually run into less trouble OCing than CCing. People are weird. They see a gun on your hip and assume it's OK for you to have it. They feel/see a gun under your clothes and assume you're trouble.

 

[ru44mag]

But my Super Blackhawk 44mags won't fit in my pocket. I'll take my chances.Sometimes I carry my 605 with .357s. Is that big enough.

 

[ru44mag]

Sorry didn't read all the way to the end. I tried open carry before and did not care for the attention.

 

[Aaron1776]

But my Super Blackhawk 44mags won't fit in my pocket. I'll take my chances.Sometimes I carry my 605 with .357s. Is that big enough.

Like I said man. It's about training. If you'll do what it takes to land hits and use smart tactics, you'll be fine. Just know what your cartridge can do. The more powerful the round, the better chance you have...assuming you hit with it

As for CC vs OC. That reminds me of a funny story. I was at Saddle Up in Castleton last weekend and the line dancing turned into close dancing. The crowd had been drinking a while and the women were getting...forward. The first girl to grope me, felt my firearm and got out. I got groped by a second girl, who noticed my firearm, and she just smiled. The same reaction with the next girl.
Only in Indiana.
Or maybe Texas.

Anyway my point is that I never get hassled or bad reactions when I OC into Wal-Mart, obviously it's not a good comparison with my above story. (I just wanted to tell it because I found it amusing.) Perhaps it's different for you.

 

[grogie]

^I took my wife out for dinner and I didn't get groped at all. Oh you single guys... LOL

 

[dyerwatcher]

.380 is my third choice. I prefer .45 or 9 mm. However today's .380 is ballistically superior to the 9mm twenty years ago and somehow that was acceptable. "Officer, I just wanted to stop the threat".

 

[Aaron1776]

^I took my wife out for dinner and I didn't get groped at all. Oh you single guys... LOL

LOL
Too good.

 

[T-Mann]

I love all of the caliber wars. I always like to refer people to research Trooper Mark Coates (SCSP) when they say "xx is the minimum" etc.

In fact, while I would still like you to google Trooper Coates and the incident, I'll give you the Cliffs Notes.

Trooper Coates shot Richard Blackburn 5 times in the chest with his .357 service revolver. Blackburn shot Coates with a .22 saturday night special. Trooper Coates gave his life on the side of I95. Blackburn is currently serving life in prison.

Any caliber can be a killer. If you feel comfortable carrying a .22 or a .380, then carry it. Any gun is better than no gun. The reality is that the chances you will ever need it are miniscule, that chances that you will get into a gun battle at 25 or 50 yards is even slimmer. Having it with you and having trained with it put you miles ahead of most other citizens. My wife has a .380 with a 3.6" barrel, I don't worry about her safety with it. Sure she could get a subcompact 9 like a LC9, but the reality is she hates shooting mine, and if she isn't going to train with it she isn't going to want to carry it. She like shooting the PK380 and trains with it. That is the key....training (that and realizing that ANY caliber can be a killer and that NO CALIBER is a guaranteed "manstopper")

 

[Aaron1776]

I love all of the caliber wars. I always like to refer people to research Trooper Mark Coates (SCSP) when they say "xx is the minimum" etc.

In fact, while I would still like you to google Trooper Coates and the incident, I'll give you the Cliffs Notes.

Trooper Coates shot Richard Blackburn 5 times in the chest with his .357 service revolver. Blackburn shot Coates with a .22 saturday night special. Trooper Coates gave his life on the side of I95. Blackburn is currently serving life in prison.

Any caliber can be a killer. If you feel comfortable carrying a .22 or a .380, then carry it. Any gun is better than no gun. The reality is that the chances you will ever need it are miniscule, that chances that you will get into a gun battle at 25 or 50 yards is even slimmer. Having it with you and having trained with it put you miles ahead of most other citizens. My wife has a .380 with a 3.6" barrel, I don't worry about her safety with it. Sure she could get a subcompact 9 like a LC9, but the reality is she hates shooting mine, and if she isn't going to train with it she isn't going to want to carry it. She like shooting the PK380 and trains with it. That is the key....training (that and realizing that ANY caliber can be a killer and that NO CALIBER is a guaranteed "manstopper")

Agreed. I merely maintain that people who call a .380 "as good as or close to a 9mm" are smoking crack. lol
However while it's true that a .22LR can drop one man while a .357 barely phases another, the name of the game here is odds. That senario is certainly possible and does happen. It's just entirely more likely that the reverse will be true. The Delta Force operator with a .22 LR is certainly far more dangerous than some drunken, untrained thug with a .45 who couldn't hit the ground. But all things being equal, that same operator is deadlier still with a .45 because he has a better chance of doing lethal damage. So carry the biggest gun you're comfortable with shooting.

 

[ru44mag]

I agree with the whole caliber thing and that the .380 is weak. If I were comfortable with OC, I would carry my GP100 with .357 hollow points. But I'm not. So it's carry the .380 or nothing. And there is a big difference in the size of my .380s and the nines you were talking about. I can hit very well with my .380s and can shoot out back every day if I want to. One variable that you failed to mention is human nature. You paint this picture to all the bad guys are like grizzlies or caped buffalos. You must kill or be killed. When in fact men are more like deer. Put a bullet in them and all the fight goes out of them and they run. If you don't believe me, read the Armed Citizen that is in every NRA magazine for as long as I can remember. As many years as I've been deer hunting, I now shot placement is key. You can carry a .454 Casull and not put them down. I know you increase your chances with the bigger heavier caliber, but for now, I will take my chances with my tiny pop gun.

 

[in625shooter]

I agree with the whole caliber thing and that the .380 is weak. If I were comfortable with OC, I would carry my GP100 with .357 hollow points. But I'm not. So it's carry the .380 or nothing. And there is a big difference in the size of my .380s and the nines you were talking about. I can hit very well with my .380s and can shoot out back every day if I want to. One variable that you failed to mention is human nature. You paint this picture to all the bad guys are like grizzlies or caped buffalos. You must kill or be killed. When in fact men are more like deer. Put a bullet in them and all the fight goes out of them and they run. If you don't believe me, read the Armed Citizen that is in every NRA magazine for as long as I can remember. As many years as I've been deer hunting, I now shot placement is key. You can carry a .454 Casull and not put them down. I know you increase your chances with the bigger heavier caliber, but for now, I will take my chances with my tiny pop gun.

ru44mag, let me respectfully add you are under estimating the mind set of serious violent persons. Not all of them are grizzlies but a lot are. In an earlier post here I mentioned I work in the Federal LE system. I have seen a ton of Federal prisoners walking around with 5.56 mm, 9mm, 40, 45 357 even 12 ga OO buck in them like you or me would recover from a broken arm. While shot placement is important there is a big difference between Deer hunting and stopping a human especially when humans are sometimes mentaly deranged or on some type of illicit substance, Deer are not!

Even a lethal hit through a perps heart they still keep moving and operating as manufactured for approximately 20 seconds, no different than a deer that runs for 30-100 yards before falling over except a bad guy can still keep shooting or whatever for a few secounds longer as in the FBI Miami shootout (thats the difference between deer and humans putting a round in them is no guarantee AT ALL). The only 2 ways to instantly incapcitate a perp is through the medulla oblongata aka brain stem. Or plan B through the pelvis which might not be fatal but usually takes them out of the fight immediately.

Murphys law dictates everything but anything is better than nothing.

 

[ru44mag]

ru44mag, let me respectfully add you are under estimating the mind set of serious violent persons. Not all of them are grizzlies but a lot are. In an earlier post here I mentioned I work in the Federal LE system. I have seen a ton of Federal prisoners walking around with 5.56 mm, 9mm, 40, 45 357 even 12 ga OO buck in them like you or me would recover from a broken arm. While shot placement is important there is a big difference between Deer hunting and stopping a human especially when humans are sometimes mentaly deranged or on some type of illicit substance, Deer are not!

Even a lethal hit through a perps heart they still keep moving and operating as manufactured for approximately 20 seconds, no different than a deer that runs for 30-100 yards before falling over except a bad guy can still keep shooting or whatever for a few secounds longer as in the FBI Miami shootout (thats the difference between deer and humans putting a round in them is no guarantee AT ALL). The only 2 ways to instantly incapcitate a perp is through the medulla oblongata aka brain stem. Or plan B through the pelvis which might not be fatal but usually takes them out of the fight immediately.

Murphys law dictates everything but anything is better than nothing.

That's kinda my point. If a .357, 45 or 12 ga isn't going to stop them, I figure I'll either run or kiss it goodbye. I have worked on an Inpatient unit in mental health for 17 years, so I know how crazy people can be. I know I can stay calm in a crisis and I also am thinking of the fact that I am 47 years old and have never needed it yet and generally stay out of that kind of situation. I also know were the medulla oblongata is and have always known that might be required. Most thugs won't require that shot. But I think I can make it if I have too. And if things keep going the way they are, open carry might become an option.

 

[ru44mag]

I do have a question about these guys walking around after being shot with .357, 45, 12 ga. Was that immediatly after they were shot, or after they recovered from their wounds? Because if it was immediately after being shot, maybe I should look into a good used 203 grenade launcher.

 

[Aaron1776]

I agree with the whole caliber thing and that the .380 is weak. If I were comfortable with OC, I would carry my GP100 with .357 hollow points. But I'm not. So it's carry the .380 or nothing. And there is a big difference in the size of my .380s and the nines you were talking about. I can hit very well with my .380s and can shoot out back every day if I want to. One variable that you failed to mention is human nature. You paint this picture to all the bad guys are like grizzlies or caped buffalos. You must kill or be killed. When in fact men are more like deer. Put a bullet in them and all the fight goes out of them and they run. If you don't believe me, read the Armed Citizen that is in every NRA magazine for as long as I can remember. As many years as I've been deer hunting, I now shot placement is key. You can carry a .454 Casull and not put them down. I know you increase your chances with the bigger heavier caliber, but for now, I will take my chances with my tiny pop gun.

When you train you need to train for taking out a dedicated opponent, and dedicated opponents are nothing like deer. It's been my experience that most stories where the BG runs off he was either surprised to see a gun and ran (as was the case when a few guys tried to mug me a few years back) or he didn't know the good guy was even armed until he took a round and then he beat feet. Generally, if a man stays on scene after you pull a gun, you can assume he's "in it to win it". If you're not comfortable with a 9mm or above, then by all means please carry a .380. Just realize that your response shouldn't be a "controlled pair". It needs to be a mag dump or a face shot. This policy is meant to keep you alive in the face of grave danger, and you can't wait around to see if he is the "run away!" type. So just train until you can't get it wrong.

 

[Tc343]

That's why I carry akimbo 500 win mag revolvers. You won't find anyone walking around with one of them in em. I'm also thrown to a safe distance after the first shot.

 

[T-Mann]

That's why I carry akimbo 500 win mag revolvers. You won't find anyone walking around with one of them in em. I'm also thrown to a safe distance after the first shot.

Make sure you cross your wrists correctly so you are thrown straight back and not to one side or the other....