Crazy ER Stories: Caliber Effectiveness on the Street

[Vic_Mackey]

Any number of reasons come to mind for why the group size would open up, but of course they are all just possibilities.

1) Grip angle and feel. (I'm assuming you weren't shooting off a rest). Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

2) Familiarity. Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

3) Ammo consistency. Matters, but at 10-15y quality ammo will have a real but not huge impact.

4) Tolerances and wear of the pistols in question. I'm not familiar enough with the weapons in question to comment on how much impact this will have.

and...my best guess:

5) Sights. Obviously this will have a huge impact, not only quality and visibility vs target, but also the style. 3 dot vs notch and post vs high viz, etc. How much light is on either side of the front post matters for accuracy. Look at target shooting sights vs combat sights. The first will have narrower gaps on the sides of the front post when the irons are lined up, which makes for more accurate shooting. More combat oriented sights will have a wider gap, costing some accuracy but increasing the speed and which you find and align the front sight in the rear notch.

I'd say some, or all, of the above would account for it more than the physics of the round at the ranges we are discussing.

Like Vic said, there are .380 gun/ammo/shooter combinations out there that group very well.

When you get to the competition level in terms of gear, ammo, and skill, then the physics of the round (and the rules of the game) will start to make a difference. A tiny difference, compared to the rest of what I've already covered, but a real one when you are shooting 1.5" groups at 50y. Not so real when you're shooting combat drills with carry equipment and bulk ammo at 10-25y, regardless of skill level.

It was definitely shooting fundamentals/familiarity involved. The LCP has almost no sights. I buried the target with the nub and held on tight, but not tight enough to let the little bugger control my hands. I was honestly sucked I hit the plate the first time lol. Now if I could just learn to curve bullets like in the movie Wanted I'd be in business!

 

[jgreiner]

Any number of reasons come to mind for why the group size would open up, but of course they are all just possibilities.

1) Grip angle and feel. (I'm assuming you weren't shooting off a rest). Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

2) Familiarity. Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

3) Ammo consistency. Matters, but at 10-15y quality ammo will have a real but not huge impact.

4) Tolerances and wear of the pistols in question. I'm not familiar enough with the weapons in question to comment on how much impact this will have.

and...my best guess:

5) Sights. Obviously this will have a huge impact, not only quality and visibility vs target, but also the style. 3 dot vs notch and post vs high viz, etc. How much light is on either side of the front post matters for accuracy. Look at target shooting sights vs combat sights. The first will have narrower gaps on the sides of the front post when the irons are lined up, which makes for more accurate shooting. More combat oriented sights will have a wider gap, costing some accuracy but increasing the speed and which you find and align the front sight in the rear notch.

I'd say some, or all, of the above would account for it more than the physics of the round at the ranges we are discussing.

Like Vic said, there are .380 gun/ammo/shooter combinations out there that group very well.

When you get to the competition level in terms of gear, ammo, and skill, then the physics of the round (and the rules of the game) will start to make a difference. A tiny difference, compared to the rest of what I've already covered, but a real one when you are shooting 1.5" groups at 50y. Not so real when you're shooting combat drills with carry equipment and bulk ammo at 10-25y, regardless of skill level.

Sights do INDEED make a huge difference. My old eyes aren't what they used to be. My M&P is the 5" model, with the front fiber optic sight. The green rod that came in it was hard for me to pick up. I replaced it wit ha red rod, and I see and shoot VERY well with it now.

My S&W 1911 SC bobtail came with Trijicon night sights. They have a white circle around the glowing center. They too are VERY easy for me to pick up and sight with, in ANY light level.

 

[Water63]

Good write up. I do think some of the newer 380 ammo does help with the stopping power. It is a less powerful than the 9mm or 38 spl but can still be a decent defensive round. Would it be my first choice ... no but in some situations it is a good choice. The small frame 380 is a handful and to put a 9mm in the same frame might not be a good choice for some people. Training is the key issue under pressure shots will go places the shooter never intended them to go.

 

[Lowrider]

Thanks for the informative right up. I started with 380, went to 9mm at first for better price of ammo but quickly felt more comfortable and accurate with the 9mm. Bought a 22lr pistol to work on technique without going broke at range but will always choose 9mm to carry, especially after digesting all the info in your post and the replies.

 

[rhino]

In conclusion, I would take two things away from this. First, carry the biggest round out of the biggest gun you can handle, and try not to use less than a .38 special/9mm. Humans are actually pretty hard to bring down. Second, don’t be afraid to take a bullet resisting criminals. Chances are, even if he gets the drop on you, he won’t hit you. If you are hit, you have an excellent chance of survival. If you die, it’s better than dying like a sheep after watching them rape and murder your family. Draw your weapon and take them down!

Good advice based on significant anecdotal evidence! Thank you!

I would add that there are no guarantees. Handgun rounds are puny, regardless of caliber (the huge hunting magnums notwithstanding). Shot placement if critical regardless of caliber, but even then, there are no guarantees unless you damage the medulla oblongata. So you have to train to keep shooting until the threat is no longer capable of harming you. If that takes a lot of rounds, then . . . you know what to do.

 

[gglass]

This...

FBI — Table 35

 

[Gadgetmonster]

Thanks for a great post. I recently acquired a .32 S&W Safety Hammerless. I figured I would keep it as in home protection. But when experienced gun owners talk to me about my old gun they almost always suggest I keep the gun but get something larger for protection. Your post helped me understand why they keep telling me that. Thanks again.,

 

[45fan]

Any number of reasons come to mind for why the group size would open up, but of course they are all just possibilities.

1) Grip angle and feel. (I'm assuming you weren't shooting off a rest). Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

2) Familiarity. Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

3) Ammo consistency. Matters, but at 10-15y quality ammo will have a real but not huge impact.

4) Tolerances and wear of the pistols in question. I'm not familiar enough with the weapons in question to comment on how much impact this will have.

and...my best guess:

5) Sights. Obviously this will have a huge impact, not only quality and visibility vs target, but also the style. 3 dot vs notch and post vs high viz, etc. How much light is on either side of the front post matters for accuracy. Look at target shooting sights vs combat sights. The first will have narrower gaps on the sides of the front post when the irons are lined up, which makes for more accurate shooting. More combat oriented sights will have a wider gap, costing some accuracy but increasing the speed and which you find and align the front sight in the rear notch.

I'd say some, or all, of the above would account for it more than the physics of the round at the ranges we are discussing.

Like Vic said, there are .380 gun/ammo/shooter combinations out there that group very well.

When you get to the competition level in terms of gear, ammo, and skill, then the physics of the round (and the rules of the game) will start to make a difference. A tiny difference, compared to the rest of what I've already covered, but a real one when you are shooting 1.5" groups at 50y. Not so real when you're shooting combat drills with carry equipment and bulk ammo at 10-25y, regardless of skill level.

To back this up, my personal experience with .380 ammo started when my wife bought a PK380 as her first pistol. With factory FMJ ammo from any of the common manufacturers, the pistol patterned instead of grouped. With HP ammo from the majority, it still turned up pretty dismal results. Some that did mak an improvement were Cor-Bon, Buffalo bore, and some of the boutique ammo manufactures that tend to get overlooked because of price compared to other brands. The only practice ammo that turned up any accuracy were handloads that I made, and they were VERY dependant on attention to quality control. The only answer here I can think of is that because of diminished case capacity, the .380 is more sensitive to variances in powder charge and seating depth. This is part of the advantage to a .38 Special, as it started life as a black powder cartridge, giving it a bit more room in the case when loaded with modern smokeless powder, thus giving it a slightly better margin for error in charge weights and seating depth.

 

[Hohn]

This...

FBI — Table 35

That table shows how popular a caliber is at least as much, if not more than, how deadly.

I'm guessing a .22 is not 13 times deadlier than a .41 mag...

 

[treken]

Interesting read. All the more reason I carry a .40 S&W at my hip

 

[draketungsten]

That table shows how popular a caliber is at least as much, if not more than, how deadly.

I'm guessing a .22 is not 13 times deadlier than a .41 mag...

Plus it only shows the total number fatalities with each caliber. I'd like to see the percentage of wounds caused by each caliber that ended in fatality.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

I would also suggest a minimum power level of the .38 or 9mm.

If I had no choice in the matter, I would be happy with the .40 S&W, but since I have a choice, I carry the .45 ACP both on and off duty.

My preference is for the larger diameter bullet to enter. The .45 enters as a .45 and does not necessarily need to expand as the smaller rounds should.

As I have said before in not so many words, concentration on the accuracy application is paramount. It may not be as important as the round that is fired, only that where it goes and is effective.

We can agree that most CNS hits with an appropriate round are certainly effective, also upper torso/center mass hits can be effective with an appropriate caliber. The rounds, however, must be delivered accurately and with dispatch. Quelling an assailant's rounds in one's own direction should be considered, especially if one is not behind cover.

For me, that appropriate round is the .45 ACP. There are others, but I prefer the .45. I do not intend to demean other calibers, however, looking at results that I have personally seen, the .45 is premier. In my personal experience, the .45 is controllable, moderate recoil, and no overriding need for +P, as may be required for the .38 and the 9mm. The .357 is also a good round, however, can be a beast in small framed weapons. The .40 is also a good round, however, I do not have extensive experience shooting one.

 

[grogie]

One fact that might surprise you: Often clinical staff think that .22s are the deadliest bullets ever. This is due to the fact that men take hits to vital areas, come in with nasty internal leaks, and bleed out. As an added bonus, .22s are small enough to drift around and bury themselves into an artery which then sucks the round downstream until it gets caught somewhere and causes an embolism. (Fun huh?) In contrast, men hit with major calibers who make it to the ER have normally been hit in a non-vital area and thus live.

Thanks as well Aaron for sharing your story.

Regarding .22s, I recall an instructor (and retired LEO) in a personal protection course tell a story about a guy that got hit in the chest with a .22. The bullet was found in his gut as it bounced around and cut up his insides. I assume he bleed to death.

I'd be curious what a .17 HMR would do over a .22? I've used both on prairie dogs, and while the holes are similar, the .17 HMRs on more occasions tend to blow them up/slice them in half. So would the small .17 bullet also still stay in the body or would it more likely pass through with it's added power over a .22? (Assuming it doesn't hit bones?) Of course my .17 is a rifle...

Oh, I do have an S&W Airlite .22 revolver with nine shots. It's an interesting gun... like shooting a cap gun. I may have to start packing it too!

 

[Hiserman79]

IMHO the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it, if its unavoidable be prepared. Just remember in a shtf situations there are a lotta arm chair heros claiming I wish I would of been there...... If the BG is more than 20 ft away and not approaching draw prepare and attempt an escape while mainting visual of BG. If no escape aim low and empty the Gun, reload and repeat until escape is possible or threat is eliminated. The absolute best gun and caliber is the one you have out pounds and pounds of lead down range with.

 

[mrortega]

I can't remember where I saw this but someone said that when you have to draw your weapon "for real", at that instant you will either be very happy with your choice of pistol, caliber, bullet weight and the amount of time you've spent practicing-or you'll be very, very sad.

Read, read, read. Then buy with confidence and practice. I love my two .40s and my .45. I'm good with any of them. I wouldn't want to get hit between the nips with any of that stuff.

 

[remman]

I just now saw this for the first time, and I gotta say, great write-up! I was considering a .380 for a back up gun, but after reading these stories, I think I'll stick to a 9mm minimum. And maybe buy a fullsize version of what I carry now, an M&P 9c and make the compact my backup. I would move to a bigger caliber for EDC, but my budget kinda constricts what I can afford to practice with.

 

[Aaron1776]

Thanks for a great post. I recently acquired a .32 S&W Safety Hammerless. I figured I would keep it as in home protection. But when experienced gun owners talk to me about my old gun they almost always suggest I keep the gun but get something larger for protection. Your post helped me understand why they keep telling me that. Thanks again.,

You are totally welcome.

If you're uncomfortable with the "big calibers" and don't want a long gun for the home, I would suggest a 9mm with a larger frame. The XDm is quite the little gun. Other than that, my personal choice is always the .45. The muzzle flips less than the .40 and you get a great deal more punch than the 9mm.
For home defense I like long guns. Why not ambush him with something far more likely to stop him?

 

[Aaron1776]

I just now saw this for the first time, and I gotta say, great write-up! I was considering a .380 for a back up gun, but after reading these stories, I think I'll stick to a 9mm minimum. And maybe buy a fullsize version of what I carry now, an M&P 9c and make the compact my backup. I would move to a bigger caliber for EDC, but my budget kinda constricts what I can afford to practice with.

M&P is a solid gun. Remember that "dry fire" or, more correctly, dry practice is worth a 1000 rds.....so long as you're doing it right.

 

[Aaron1776]

Can't really compare rifles to pistols. Obviously speed and bullet weight are the big determing factors. I can't say I have any experiences with a .17 caliber though.

 

[ru44mag]

After spending a lot of time reading all this info, I feel kinda stupid. I bought a LCP, a TCP and a P238. They are not as accurate as my Mark II, Mark III or My High Standard Sport King, but I can shoot nice groups at 10 yards with all three .380s. Now I feel like It would be better if I just threw them at the BG rather than shoot them. Thing is I can carry My Ruger Super Blackhawks into the woods when hunting. Or my HP or one of my .357s out back or at the range, but when I go to the grocery store, the only thing I feel comfortable carrying is the little .380s. I guess I need to do some research on holsters.