Crazy ER Stories: Caliber Effectiveness on the Street

[Hohn]

When you train you need to train for taking out a dedicated opponent, and dedicated opponents are nothing like deer. It's been my experience that most stories where the BG runs off he was either surprised to see a gun and ran (as was the case when a few guys tried to mug me a few years back) or he didn't know the good guy was even armed until he took a round and then he beat feet. Generally, if a man stays on scene after you pull a gun, you can assume he's "in it to win it". If you're not comfortable with a 9mm or above, then by all means please carry a .380. Just realize that your response shouldn't be a "controlled pair". It needs to be a mag dump or a face shot. This policy is meant to keep you alive in the face of grave danger, and you can't wait around to see if he is the "run away!" type. So just train until you can't get it wrong.

This^^

If it's bad enough that you actually draw, things are bad. If you actually need to fire, then you better empty your mag. NEVER shoot to injure. You shoot to stop the threat. Stopping a threat means incapacitation. That means no ability to any longer post a threat. That doesn't mean he can't use a hand anymore or that he can't walk very easily. It means he CANNOT harm you because he lacks the physical ability to.

I'd like to think even a determined BG can't stand 15 rounds of 165gr HST. But if they aren't well-placed, even 15 "hits" can be insufficient--even with a nasty load like the HST.

If I'm in a situation like this, I'm aiming not for COM, but for the hips/groin so he can't run at me (and a femoral artery will bleed out very quickly). If he's armed, and the range is reasonable close, I'm taking head shots.

COM hits just can't incapacitate fast enough to stop someone from killing me. Even a direct shot through the heart can let the BG keep coming at me for anther 10-15 seconds. No, COM hits aren't instantly incapacitating. A shot between the eyes usually is.

What's the movie line? "Aim small, miss small"

 

[Aaron1776]

This^^

If it's bad enough that you actually draw, things are bad. If you actually need to fire, then you better empty your mag. NEVER shoot to injure. You shoot to stop the threat. Stopping a threat means incapacitation. That means no ability to any longer post a threat. That doesn't mean he can't use a hand anymore or that he can't walk very easily. It means he CANNOT harm you because he lacks the physical ability to.

I'd like to think even a determined BG can't stand 15 rounds of 165gr HST. But if they aren't well-placed, even 15 "hits" can be insufficient--even with a nasty load like the HST.

If I'm in a situation like this, I'm aiming not for COM, but for the hips/groin so he can't run at me (and a femoral artery will bleed out very quickly). If he's armed, and the range is reasonable close, I'm taking head shots.

COM hits just can't incapacitate fast enough to stop someone from killing me. Even a direct shot through the heart can let the BG keep coming at me for anther 10-15 seconds. No, COM hits aren't instantly incapacitating. A shot between the eyes usually is.

What's the movie line? "Aim small, miss small"

Not sure if a handgun has the power to disable with hips shots. I know a shotgun slug will. Personally I don't shoot COM either. I shoot high in the chest around the heart and lungs ala military. This policy has had a decent probability of stopping people, though obviously not perfect. I fully expect him to keep moving for at least a few seconds after I give him a couple of 230 grain JHPs, which is why I move my feet off "the x" right away. If it's just one guy he's probably going to get hosed by me. I have no reason to save the ammo so he's going to get dumped on until he stops fighting, can't fight, runs, or drops his gun.

 

[Hohn]

Not sure if a handgun has the power to disable with hips shots. I know a shotgun slug will.

Good point.

Maybe not enough power, but this load has enough penetration:

220gr of hardcast 10mm at 1200fps is sufficient penetration for any human target.

 

[ru44mag]

Good point.

Maybe not enough power, but this load has enough penetration:

220gr of hardcast 10mm at 1200fps is sufficient penetration for any human target.

If you shoot him with one of those, you can shoot COM. You will take out the spine. Then he will drop and never get up again. I'm sure you are a good enough shot for that. If you had no other choice but a .380, would you use solids, or hollow points? I'm starting to think the hollow points would be useless due to the lack of penatration.

 

[Caleb]

If you shoot him with one of those, you can shoot COM. You will take out the spine. Then he will drop and never get up again. I'm sure you are a good enough shot for that. If you had no other choice but a .380, would you use solids, or hollow points? I'm starting to think the hollow points would be useless due to the lack of penatration.

Your answer depends on the caliber and mass

 

[ru44mag]

Your answer depends on the caliber and mass

I'm confused. The first part, I was referring to his 220 grain 10 mm rounds he has pictured. That would penatrate through to the spine. My question was about .380s. Hollow points or solids. .380 is about a 38 caliber and generally they weigh less than 100 grains. I just put in a bid on a Glock 26 on gunbroker, so maybe I will just sell my .380s. Anyone interested in an LCP, a TCP or a Sig P238?

 

[T-Mann]

If you shoot him with one of those, you can shoot COM. You will take out the spine. Then he will drop and never get up again. I'm sure you are a good enough shot for that. If you had no other choice but a .380, would you use solids, or hollow points? I'm starting to think the hollow points would be useless due to the lack of penatration.

You are over thinking this. What kind of .380 are you carrying? Look at this testing done with different .380 ammo manufacturer's out of a 2.75" barrel.

380ACP Ammo Performance

Hydrashok (JHP) meets the 12" FBI minimum on average. ALL FMJ rounds tested greatly exceed the 12" FBI minimum standard.

Hornady XTP JHP also had rounds that met the 12" minimum (but fell just short of 12" on average).

Guns with a barrel longer than 2.75" will generate a higher velocity at the muzzle and in theory will have just a bit deeper penetration than than the shorter barrel.

Carry your .380, load it with Hydrashoks if you want. Load it with FMJ if you want. Alternate FMJ, JHP, FMJ, etc if you'd like. Also realize that with FMJ even though it is "only a .380" (as others say) you still run the risk of over-penetration.

As I said before, my wife carries a .380 and I don't worry about her being "undergunned".

 

[ru44mag]

You are over thinking this. What kind of .380 are you carrying? Look at this testing done with different .380 ammo manufacturer's out of a 2.75" barrel.

380ACP Ammo Performance

Hydrashok (JHP) meets the 12" FBI minimum on average. ALL FMJ rounds tested greatly exceed the 12" FBI minimum standard.

Hornady XTP JHP also had rounds that met the 12" minimum (but fell just short of 12" on average).

Guns with a barrel longer than 2.75" will generate a higher velocity at the muzzle and in theory will have just a bit deeper penetration than than the shorter barrel.

Carry your .380, load it with Hydrashoks if you want. Load it with FMJ if you want. Alternate FMJ, JHP, FMJ, etc if you'd like. Also realize that with FMJ even though it is "only a .380" (as others say) you still run the risk of over-penetration.

As I said before, my wife carries a .380 and I don't worry about her being "undergunned".

I have a TCP a LCP and a P238. All barrels are between 2.5 and 2.75 inches. I have several boxes of solids and half box of hydroshocks. They are all very small and carry very nicely against my belly to the right. They all shoot accurately and without jamming. So you are saying they might do more than just **** someone off if I had to use one? Aaron 1776 and Hohn seem to think otherwise.

 

[Aaron1776]

I have a TCP a LCP and a P238. All barrels are between 2.5 and 2.75 inches. I have several boxes of solids and half box of hydroshocks. They are all very small and carry very nicely against my belly to the right. They all shoot accurately and without jamming. So you are saying they might do more than just **** someone off if I had to use one? Aaron 1776 and Hohn seem to think otherwise.

I think this earlier post might be of help:

You need to look up the Hatcher Value of the two rounds.
(For those of you who are unaware, the Hacther value was a formula created by General Julian Hatcher, who was also a noted forensic pathologist among other things, to calculate the theoretical stopping power of a handgun round. It has withstood the test of time as being a valid measurement of odds. Basically, the higher the value, the better your odds of knocking a man down. There is a law of diminishing returns beyond 55)

The 9mm is 39.9
The 38 special is 39.7
The .380 is a mere 18.3. (Less than half the 9mm or .38)
The .32 is 11.8 (Which one is the .380 closer to? a .32 or .38spl?)

What matters when you're talking about calibers in general are averages and odds. A .380 stops a guy with one shot approx 6 out of 20 times. (About the same chance of a .32 stopping someone, probably a little more.) A 38spl or 9mm bumps it up to 1 out of 2.....33% vs 50% seems like a giant gap to me.

For something that's "almost a 9mm", that's really anemic.

Can you find instances of a .380 punching in one side and out the other instantly killing a man? Probably somwhere. Just like you can find instances of a 9mm skipping off a rib and doing next to nothing. But in general a .380 is a far cry from a 9mm.....and both get smoked by the .45 in both anecdotal evidence and large studies.

All I am saying is that my anecdotal experiences in the ER have concurred with the statistical data and the Hatcher Formula, thus why I wrote them down.

But as I said before, a .380 is better than no gun at all, so if you wanna bet your life on it, I've got no call to stop you. Just please train with it like James Bond so you'll survive your gunfight by shooting him the face.

What I'm trying to get at is it all boils down to training & odds. You can use any gun to bring a man down if you train with it well enough. Higher calibers greatly increase your chances of success. You just need to know the capabilities of the .380 round on average. It's really not that special, so it requires more training to be used effectively. Keeping in mind that obviously each gunfight will be a law unto itself. So it boils down one: how much are you willing to train? and two: what are you willing to bet your life on?

 

[Aaron1776]

And to answer the question about JHP vs FMJ on the .380:
That's really a jugement call. Shooting into ballistic gel doesn't tell us much except how far a bullet will penetrate under absolutely ideal conditions. It's worth something, but often people put too much weight on it. Statistical data compiled from real life is better IMO.
When choosing remember this:
Penetration is your friend. Don't worry about risking over penetration. If you have to defend your life against a man trying to kill you, stopping him is your first concern. Just don't be a numbnuts and be aware of what is around you and what is beyond your target so you can try to manuever yourself into a better angle if you have time. If you don't have time, it's better to risk it than to be dead.
Hollowpoints obviously give you a better wound channel. Is the 12" minimum of the FBI standards enough? I don't know. Only you can decide that.

I can tell you that I used to carry a .380, (as did my friend, my uncle, and my mother)when I wasn't carrying my .45. After lots of research, range testing, and experiences in the ER, we all abandoned the round. Especially when we found 9mm platforms that were just as easy to conceal and shot better. It boils down to the fact that we wanted more power, to spend less money on ammo, and not neccessarily have to magdump to bring a man down. Knowing full well that we might have to magdump anyway depending on the situation. Like I said, it's all about training and odds.

The last hold out was my mother. She doesn't like change, but when she went out and got some professional training she realized that it took a whole lot of practice to shoot the .380 well enough to be reliably effective. More practice that is far more expensive and harder to do. Immediately after the class she bought a springfield 9mm and a kahr 9mm. She shoots far better and faster with both than she ever did with her .380s, and the little kahr conceals just as well as her .380s did. Given the LC9, the XDS (in 9mm now!), kahr 9mm, etc which all conceal just as well, it didn't make sense to her not to go to a 9mm platform.

 

[in625shooter]

Not sure if a handgun has the power to disable with hips shots. I know a shotgun slug will. Personally I don't shoot COM either. I shoot high in the chest around the heart and lungs ala military. This policy has had a decent probability of stopping people, though obviously not perfect. I fully expect him to keep moving for at least a few seconds after I give him a couple of 230 grain JHPs, which is why I move my feet off "the x" right away. If it's just one guy he's probably going to get hosed by me. I have no reason to save the ammo so he's going to get dumped on until he stops fighting, can't fight, runs, or drops his gun.

A pelvis/hip shot is more effective than trying to hit the T zone in the head. T zone is smaller and the skull can deflect the round if far enough out. Yes you will ring their bell but not always the absolute stopper. With the pelvic/hip there is a more area to het the pelvoc/ball joint area and if hit the skeleton ceases to work as manufactured ie he drops like a sack of potatos because the wieght can not be supported by the skeleton.

Is anything an absolute? NO! Because like I mentioned Murpheys law alwas is in command but, it's a plan

 

[in625shooter]

That's kinda my point. If a .357, 45 or 12 ga isn't going to stop them, I figure I'll either run or kiss it goodbye. I have worked on an Inpatient unit in mental health for 17 years, so I know how crazy people can be. I know I can stay calm in a crisis and I also am thinking of the fact that I am 47 years old and have never needed it yet and generally stay out of that kind of situation. I also know were the medulla oblongata is and have always known that might be required. Most thugs won't require that shot. But I think I can make it if I have too. And if things keep going the way they are, open carry might become an option.

Not sure if I am reading into this but When you say "most thugs won't require that shot" Thats not "always" true. Like I said earlier to totally incapacitate them you might need to hit them there or in the CNS or pelvis etc to stop them. I have seen a lot take what would put you or me in a grave but are walking around in the Justice system like it was nothing more happened than a broken arm. Just because you "hit them" does not mean they stop or run away in fear a lot have kept their attack up and usually to the person that shot them in disbelief. Thats all I am saying and in 27 years I have seen A LOT and some of it still surprises me!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Not sure if a handgun has the power to disable with hips shots.

Not reliably. A cracked pelvis isn't disabling. Folks occasionally fracture their pelvis in a fall and walk around on it for a few days until the pain leads them to an x-ray. You'd actually have to get a round into the actual hip joint, and given bullet deflection that's a tall order with a handgun round.

Pelvis shots are recommended in certain situations because of the major arteries in that area which can cause a rapid bleed out. If the goal were actually mechanical immobilization due to damage to the skeletal system, you'd be better off taking out a shin bone as its not well protected and structurally weaker.

 

[ru44mag]

This thread is getting comical. I have visions of all these bad guys lying on the ground, but they aren't dead. They are just crippled. Heart, brain and hands still work. They are just on the floor shooting back at the guy that crippled them. LOL. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm out of here.

 

[mrortega]

ru44mag, let me respectfully add you are under estimating the mind set of serious violent persons. Not all of them are grizzlies but a lot are. In an earlier post here I mentioned I work in the Federal LE system. I have seen a ton of Federal prisoners walking around with 5.56 mm, 9mm, 40, 45 357 even 12 ga OO buck in them like you or me would recover from a broken arm. While shot placement is important there is a big difference between Deer hunting and stopping a human especially when humans are sometimes mentaly deranged or on some type of illicit substance, Deer are not!

Even a lethal hit through a perps heart they still keep moving and operating as manufactured for approximately 20 seconds, no different than a deer that runs for 30-100 yards before falling over except a bad guy can still keep shooting or whatever for a few secounds longer as in the FBI Miami shootout (thats the difference between deer and humans putting a round in them is no guarantee AT ALL). The only 2 ways to instantly incapcitate a perp is through the medulla oblongata aka brain stem. Or plan B through the pelvis which might not be fatal but usually takes them out of the fight immediately.

Murphys law dictates everything but anything is better than nothing.

Sobering thoughts about dangerous perps. I think most citizens are likely to encounter the punk in for an easy score. Pull/use a handgun against him and he'll have to change his pants pretty quickly. Surprise a burglar in your home and you might be in for a little tougher time. "I'm outa here and I'll kill you and your wife and kids to get away." Get approached by a spaced out druggie and it could be a tough time. I try to give myself something good to work with and hope some hits with a .45 or .40 will give me an edge. Again, I think the surprise factor of a citizen being armed on the street when he's attacked is significant.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This thread is getting comical. I have visions of all these bad guys lying on the ground, but they aren't dead. They are just crippled. Heart, brain and hands still work. They are just on the floor shooting back at the guy that crippled them. LOL. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm out of here.

Obviously that's not to be desired, but sometimes that's the reality. Remember the LA bank robbers that were heavily armored? Remember how an ankle shot was used to down one? No one is saying that a crippling shot is preferred, but sometimes that is what is available. People confuse center mass shooting with center of torso shooting. The intent is center of acceptable target, and sometimes that means what is exposed and unarmored, even if that's just an ankle.

 

[CmdrBoudreaux]

30 years of trauma/er/flight and disaster medicine....... have taught me well - there are no consistent consistencies - yet shot placement, caliber and TYPE of ammunition used can and does make a difference.

 

[Hohn]

I have a TCP a LCP and a P238. All barrels are between 2.5 and 2.75 inches. I have several boxes of solids and half box of hydroshocks. They are all very small and carry very nicely against my belly to the right. They all shoot accurately and without jamming. So you are saying they might do more than just **** someone off if I had to use one? Aaron 1776 and Hohn seem to think otherwise.

I don't think 'we' (though I'll let Aaron speak for himself) would say that a .380 is the same as a spitwad.

Just that it is not that close to a 9mm, and as marginal for defensive purposes (assuming you've done your part and placed the shot well. The relationship of recoil to shot placement is relevant, but beyond my comment scope for now).


One way to think of terminal ballistics is in terms of work done (work, like the physics sense of force X distance).

A bullet inbound to a target has some amount of kinetic energy and momentum. That energy will be maintained unless "work" is done on it. "Work" is being done by wind resistance as it applies a force that slows the bullet down.

When that bullet approaches a human target, we want enough "work" to be done on the bullet to completely stop the bullet. If the bullet carries any energy with it beyond the target (through and through), then that energy is never converted to useful work-- it is, for our purposes, wasted.

The rate at which work is done is called POWER. It takes a lot more power to lift 50lbs 4 feet off the ground in 0.1 seconds than it does in 10 seconds-- even though the two tasks are the same amount of "work."

So let's sum it up this way. Force is the rate of change of momentum. Work is force X Distance. So Work= ▲Momentum X distance. Power adds a time element: (▲MxD)/t. Let's ignore the power element for now.


The work we want done as the bullet enters are two things: work done *to* the bullet and work done *by* the bullet. The first part is easy: we want the bullet deformed and fully expanded. The the bullet expands, the more work done to it (and the less momentum/energy remains for penetration)

The second part is the key part: the work the bullet does to the target. This is tissue damage (crushing, lacerating, etc) and bone damage (breaking/penetrating).

The more the JHP opens up (i.e. more work done to it it), the less work available for penetrating and crushing. However, if too little work is done on the bullet, then you lose the ability for the bullet to do its own work at the proper rate (risk over-penetration like an FMJ would).


Just like how in "The Price is Right" you do the best by getting as close to the price without going over, I think the ideal bullet is one that expands just enough to barely avoid a through-and-through (won't penetrate the skin on the outbound layer.


One might make the argument that penetration in bare gelatin is a MINIMUM. This might be true. After all, this is usually the maximum possible expansion and hence the highest rate of energy dump. IF the bullet fails to expand, then you essentially have FMJ-like penetration and "insufficient penetration" problems go away.

See TNoutdoors9's test on youtube of a .380 FMJ that had no problem going all the way through a 20" block of Sim Test.


Brassfetcher actually did a study of the effect of bone on expansion and found that 5/6 of the major .40 JHP loads failed to expand when they first hit a bone simulant:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/40S&W/40S&W Bone Test.pdf

However, that study is deeply flawed, unless you are studying humans with exoskeletons. Having the bone simulant be the first thing the bullet encounters is not realistic. Even skulls are covered in skin.