Crazy ER Stories: Caliber Effectiveness on the Street

[ghuns]

A great read from a guy that knew a thing or two about shooting BGs...

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873648773?ie=UTF8&tag=bluesheecom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0873648773]Guns, Bullets, And Gunfights: Lessons And Tales From A Modern-Day Gunfighter: Jim Cirillo: 9780873648776: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

One story I found interesting from the book was, he once asked a coroner where to shoot a BG to stop him in his tracks. They sometimes ran into PCP users who seemed to posses super-human ability to absorb bullets. The coroner said anywhere in the pelvis. They may not die, but they ain't walking or running in your direction anymore. I assume this means with something in the 9, 38, or 45 range.

 

[Vic_Mackey]

A great read from a guy that knew a thing or two about shooting BGs...

Guns, Bullets, And Gunfights: Lessons And Tales From A Modern-Day Gunfighter: Jim Cirillo: 9780873648776: Amazon.com: Books

One story I found interesting from the book was, he once asked a coroner where to shoot a BG to stop him in his tracks. They sometimes ran into PCP users who seemed to posses super-human ability to absorb bullets. The coroner said anywhere in the pelvis. They may not die, but they ain't walking or running in your direction anymore. I assume this means with something in the 9, 38, or 45 range.

That is a really good read. Mas Ayoob has a few good ones as well.

 

[in625shooter]

A great read from a guy that knew a thing or two about shooting BGs...

Guns, Bullets, And Gunfights: Lessons And Tales From A Modern-Day Gunfighter: Jim Cirillo: 9780873648776: Amazon.com: Books

One story I found interesting from the book was, he once asked a coroner where to shoot a BG to stop him in his tracks. They sometimes ran into PCP users who seemed to posses super-human ability to absorb bullets. The coroner said anywhere in the pelvis. They may not die, but they ain't walking or running in your direction anymore. I assume this means with something in the 9, 38, or 45 range.

Actually that is one of the reasons a lot of agencies teach the pelia as the first alternative. That whole 2 to the chest 1 to the head isan old wives tale of sorts these days. Besides there have been cases where while the BG's bell did get rung handgun rounds are deflected a lot of times on any hit outside the T Zone AKA the Medulla Oblongata!

 

[scottka]

I got something with much more punch in the bed...

New sig line for someone... haha

 

[in625shooter]

New sig line for someone... haha

How bout my sig line, "You just jealous, You have Bore envy"!!! LOL

 

[schwaky18]

Is that an true example of a 10mm or a joke (the first half of it, besides the mushroom cloud)? I always knew 10mm were said to cause more damage but holy ****. Seriously, if that is accurate I am going out and buying G20 this week.

 

[Hohn]

Yes, that 10mm is correct. A real mushroom cloud actually occurs in the gelatin. 10mm is so awesome that Chuck Norris can't shoot 10mm. 10mm lets Chuck Norris pull the trigger.

As for finding a 10mm this weekend, good luck with that. Gen 3s are out there on gunbroker, but even a short frame isn't that handy, and a gen 4 is as rare as hen's teeth.

 

[schwaky18]

Yes, that 10mm is correct. A real mushroom cloud actually occurs in the gelatin. 10mm is so awesome that Chuck Norris can't shoot 10mm. 10mm lets Chuck Norris pull the trigger.

As for finding a 10mm this weekend, good luck with that. Gen 3s are out there on gunbroker, but even a short frame isn't that handy, and a gen 4 is as rare as hen's teeth.

edited for clarity. And I know of two LGS that have both a g20 and g29 in stock as of today.

 

[Hohn]

Gen 4?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And no one still has explained why myself and the other shooters where hitting with the kahr 9mm better than the Colt .380, which are about the same size.

Any number of reasons come to mind for why the group size would open up, but of course they are all just possibilities.

1) Grip angle and feel. (I'm assuming you weren't shooting off a rest). Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

2) Familiarity. Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

3) Ammo consistency. Matters, but at 10-15y quality ammo will have a real but not huge impact.

4) Tolerances and wear of the pistols in question. I'm not familiar enough with the weapons in question to comment on how much impact this will have.

and...my best guess:

5) Sights. Obviously this will have a huge impact, not only quality and visibility vs target, but also the style. 3 dot vs notch and post vs high viz, etc. How much light is on either side of the front post matters for accuracy. Look at target shooting sights vs combat sights. The first will have narrower gaps on the sides of the front post when the irons are lined up, which makes for more accurate shooting. More combat oriented sights will have a wider gap, costing some accuracy but increasing the speed and which you find and align the front sight in the rear notch.

I'd say some, or all, of the above would account for it more than the physics of the round at the ranges we are discussing.

Like Vic said, there are .380 gun/ammo/shooter combinations out there that group very well.

When you get to the competition level in terms of gear, ammo, and skill, then the physics of the round (and the rules of the game) will start to make a difference. A tiny difference, compared to the rest of what I've already covered, but a real one when you are shooting 1.5" groups at 50y. Not so real when you're shooting combat drills with carry equipment and bulk ammo at 10-25y, regardless of skill level.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes, that 10mm is correct. A real mushroom cloud actually occurs in the gelatin. 10mm is so awesome that Chuck Norris can't shoot 10mm. 10mm lets Chuck Norris pull the trigger.

As for finding a 10mm this weekend, good luck with that. Gen 3s are out there on gunbroker, but even a short frame isn't that handy, and a gen 4 is as rare as hen's teeth.

I've seen several stores that still has 10mm and .45 GAP Glocks in stock. They were the last varieties of Glocks in stock at BGF and Jenkins.

**on edit**

BFG doesn't have them any longer, the last two 10mm have sold since last time I was in. They were putting out some new 1911's while I was there today, though.

 

[drysdaleg]

Great read. Welcome to ingo!

 

[Hohn]

Check this: the original 10mm loading from Norma had a Hatcher Scale value of 72. Wow.

The 10mm Auto Cartridge

 

[Aaron1776]

Any number of reasons come to mind for why the group size would open up, but of course they are all just possibilities.

1) Grip angle and feel. (I'm assuming you weren't shooting off a rest). Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

2) Familiarity. Impact varies based on shooter and handgun.

3) Ammo consistency. Matters, but at 10-15y quality ammo will have a real but not huge impact.

4) Tolerances and wear of the pistols in question. I'm not familiar enough with the weapons in question to comment on how much impact this will have.

and...my best guess:

5) Sights. Obviously this will have a huge impact, not only quality and visibility vs target, but also the style. 3 dot vs notch and post vs high viz, etc. How much light is on either side of the front post matters for accuracy. Look at target shooting sights vs combat sights. The first will have narrower gaps on the sides of the front post when the irons are lined up, which makes for more accurate shooting. More combat oriented sights will have a wider gap, costing some accuracy but increasing the speed and which you find and align the front sight in the rear notch.

I'd say some, or all, of the above would account for it more than the physics of the round at the ranges we are discussing.

Like Vic said, there are .380 gun/ammo/shooter combinations out there that group very well.

When you get to the competition level in terms of gear, ammo, and skill, then the physics of the round (and the rules of the game) will start to make a difference. A tiny difference, compared to the rest of what I've already covered, but a real one when you are shooting 1.5" groups at 50y. Not so real when you're shooting combat drills with carry equipment and bulk ammo at 10-25y, regardless of skill level.

Actually the sights were IMO better on the two colt .380s, both of which have been in the family for a while, so there goes familiarity, and the feel and size of the colt .380 approximate. The quality was also better. I could buy the argument with the Bursa .380 about barrel tolerances, but the sights weren't any worse than the Kahr 9mm, which certainly shot better.

If the inferior physics aren't doing it at that range, then my best guess is the ammo consistency.

 

[Aaron1776]

What you are calling "hydrostatic shock" is, actually, temporary cavitation, which, typically, only happens at bullet speeds above 2,000 fps coupled with bullet yaw, but it varies with tissue and containment, such as with the cranium. At handgun speeds, temporary cavitation has no permanent tissue disruption. Temporary cavitation is, also, mistaken for "ballistic pressure waves" which some claim, erroneously, have remote wounding effects. Such have never been observed either clinically or experimentally, in spite of claims by Michael Courtney, whose work has been thoroughly discredited.

Ahh. Then my instructors named it incorrectly, which would account for why I thought they were the same thing. (Their backgrounds were military, not science. lol) I have heard claims that at close range upper caliber pistols begin to damage via temp cavitation. (I had never called temp cav. hydrostatic shock before then) Though not much. This of course is not substanciated, which is why I said I've "heard claims that they begin to" Thanks for the terminology correction.

 

[Aaron1776]

Cannot disagree more strongly. Go ahead and recommend guns to women that need "break in" periods. Your contention that flawless performance out of the box is nonsense is ludicrous. You seem to expouse a self-defense gun should not work properly when new. That, sir, is outrageous, and will get someone killed who takes your advice. You also do not know that muscle memory, like "hydrostatic shock" is a misnomer. Memory is not in the muscular system; it is in the neurological system. What you call "muscle memory" is, actually, neural adaptation creating new neural circuits.

There is no way in the world I will ever recommend guns that are known to experience stoppages and malfunctions when new, and no one knows when, or if, those unacceptable events will cease. I will only recommned firearms known to function flawlessly right out of the box. Kahr firearms fail that test in every instance I have observed, and I strongly recommend against them.

I never said that a gun shouldn't work out of the box. I said that one or two hang ups in the first few hundred rounds isn't something to dismiss a weapon over if it continues to function well afterward. I even said that if you get continuous stoppages out of the box that it's a factory issue. (meaning the gun needs to be sent back because it's defective)

BTW I'm not an idiot. I am medical laboratory scientist. I am aware of what "muscle memory" actually is. I named it thusly because that is how most laymen understand it. I could sit here and talk about the physiology of neural pathways (I used to teach a physiology lab) but what good is that? It doesn't help anyone actually learn about firearms....which is the point of this site correct? You're just being a know-it-all now, and that sort of thing doesn't fly well with me.

Whether or not Kahr fails the test is subjective. Every Kahr owner I've personally known has loved theirs and had a weapon that shot really well. That might not be the case with your experiences. I garauntee you that EVERY gun manufacturer produces firearms with defects, and thus I always counsel people to fire several hundred rounds through the gun, learn it, etc before using it for protection. If they have a persistent problem right out of the box, that is an entirely different issue and obviously the gun should be sent back.

One line was particularly offensive as it completely twisted the meaning of my words:
"You seem to expouse a self-defense gun should not work properly when new. That, sir, is outrageous, and will get someone killed who takes your advice."
In no way did I advocate someone using a gun that didn't work properly. I simply stated that "flawless" is non-sense because it is litterally impossible for humans to creat "flawless" equipment. We are flawed creatures, thus we cannot create flawless things. There are great guns that may or may not have one or two stoppages in the first few hundred rounds. This does not make them bad guns, so long as they continually work well after that. Guns, like all machinery, are designed for their middle life and thus might have a one or two hang ups, no matter WHO made the gun. This is not the same thing as saying "oh you get a type 3 malfunction every ten rounds? Just break it in!!" I would have thought that was obvious.

I really don't like how you assume I'm a moron. Please keep smart alek and/or demeaning comments to yourself.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If the inferior physics aren't doing it at that range, then my best guess is the ammo consistency.

Dunno, but I got to thinking about it and did come up with another possibility. I can tell you my Firestorm .380 will group 5 shots at about 2.5-3" at 15y using S&B ammo. Well, actually my dad's now, since his arthritis got to the point he was having trouble with his 9mm and I sold it to him.

Better shooters than me can tighten that up to something like this:

So obviously its physically possible for the .380 to group pretty well.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the Colt Mustang, but I did a bit of poking around and found out that a simple change in bullet weight tightens groups significantly. Maybe due to the twist rate or the shorter barrel, I don't know, but it likes lighter bullets.

Will the Mustang accept +P loads?

 

[Hohn]

ooooooo.... Cor-bon...............................

 

[Aaron1776]

Dunno, but I got to thinking about it and did come up with another possibility. I can tell you my Firestorm .380 will group 5 shots at about 2.5-3" at 15y using S&B ammo.
...

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the Colt Mustang, but I did a bit of poking around and found out that a simple change in bullet weight tightens groups significantly. Maybe due to the twist rate or the shorter barrel, I don't know, but it likes lighter bullets.

Will the Mustang accept +P loads?

Hmm very interesting. What grains does it need? I don't know if it will take +P or not. +P .380 brought me right back to "why not a 9mm?" again during the quest for easily concealable guns. You can get the platforms in relatively the same size and IMO, the difference in recoil in the smaller 9mm platforms vs the .380 platforms is a pittance to me. Why not take the power addition? (Or as my friend put it so well, "you mean in a little .380 platform I can have all the 9mm recoil without all that pesky penetration?" lol) Thus I never went the +P route with them.
Anymore the Mustangs sit in the safe as nice little collection pieces to be admired for how pretty they are. (My family has both the government and PLUS II models) Unless of course I decide to take them to the range for some fun. Which kinda came to an end after the 9mm round was adopted by my mother (we often shoot together). Do you think the +P loads would do better?

Now I'm really curious. If I can find the lighter ammo I might try it in the colt.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hmm very interesting. What grains does it need? I don't know if it will take +P or not. +P .380 brought me right back to "why not a 9mm?"

.380 loads run from 85gr to 95gr bullets. Try 85, 88, 90, and see what it likes.

As to why not a 9mm? All else being equal, the 9mm is the better choice. I've never claimed otherwise, just disputed that the .380 was inaccurate.

I bought mine due to price and because when I bought mine the lightweight small 9mm hadn't really hit the market yet. These days with polymer as prevalent as it is and a lot of folks learning the value of a single stack, there's not as much reason to choose anything smaller than a 9mm if you are buying something new.