Confederate flag

[.45 Dave]

Be sure to obtain a permission slip.

Yes I need to apply for one too, I guess. BTW--I saw a movie a few days ago that explains why the Civil War was fought. Evidently Ole Abe was a vampire hunter and the war was fought over destroying the vampires controlling the south. Who knew?

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Yes I need to apply for one too, I guess. BTW--I saw a movie a few days ago that explains why the Civil War was fought. Evidently Ole Abe was a vampire hunter and the war was fought over destroying the vampires controlling the south. Who knew?

The civil war was fought to rid America of vampires in the southern states - the whole slavery thing was just a cover up.

Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter is a documentary that reveals this commonly unknown truth.

FACT

 

[.45 Dave]

FACT

Thanks for the rep. Somehow I missed your earlier post. It was a pretty good movie though!

 

[ThrottleJockey]

How did Lincoln feel about things at the time?

It isn't about what he "felt", but rather what he thought he had a legal right and or obligation to do. The Southern states were being starved out and taxed at an unreasonable rate by comparison to the northern states, that tax money was being spent primarily IN and ON the further development of the northern states whilst the southern states continued to struggle. There were slaves on both sides and only those in the southern states where the Union had no authority at the time were "freed" by the emancipation proclamation. It wasn't until long AFTER the war of northern aggression that those slaves in the north were freed. Stinkin' lincoln suspended writs of habeous corpus and imprisoned his political enemies and in some cases executed them to keep them quiet. Additionally, lincoln committed further war crimes by ordering attacks on civilians and burning their farms in order to break the morale of the confederate troops making them return home to protect their families. Lincoln couldn't even find a sober general to commit these acts of aggression. Lincoln is perhaps the founding father of the federal monster that currently has its boot on our throats. In short, the war of northern aggression WAS fought over economic freedom for the states, states rights as outlined in the 10th amendment to the COTUS the final portion of the BOR. Slavery was only an issue to those civilians in the northern states that WANTED it to be the issue as the federal government had at the time, NO authority over the states in that particular issue. Slavery at that time was almost finished to begin with due to the industrialization brought about by the invention of machines that were more productive, cheaper to buy and keep/operate and didn't require medical care, food, shelter, etc, etc, etc. Sorry, my "in short" statement was false, there is no "in short" for this. In his letter to his close friend Horace Greely, stinkin' lincoln outlined much of what I stated above so I will post it below as an answer to your question about lincolns feelings at the time.

Written during the heart of the Civil War, this is one of Abraham Lincoln's most famous letters. Greeley, editor of the influential New York Tribune, had just addressed an editorial to Lincoln called "The Prayer of Twenty Millions," making demands and implying that Lincoln's administration lacked direction and resolve. President Lincoln made his reply when a draft of the Emancipation Proclamation already lay in his desk drawer. His response revealed his concentration on preserving the Union. The letter, which received acclaim in the North, stands as a classic statement of Lincoln's constitutional responsibilities. A few years after the president's death, Greeley wrote an assessment of Lincoln. He stated that Lincoln did not actually respond to his editorial but used it instead as a platform to prepare the public for his "altered position" on emancipation.

Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.
I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.
Yours,
A. Lincoln.

Again, I must stress that Lincolns ONLY intent was to maintain federal power and control over the sovereign states that together formed the union in the first place. In all my attempts and research into finding the ROOT of the problems we face today every bit of evidence that I can find points to lincoln as the great perpetrator against freedom and liberty in favor of tyranny. Now mind you there have been plenty of others since that have played their own role in the demise of freedom and liberty, take W.Wilson for example.....I suppose there's no point in going there though as we all know what he did without any question or doubt....

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Sorry, I must add that IMO, the war of northern aggression was perhaps our LAST chance to save freedom and liberty. As a result of history being re-written to paint lincoln as an American Hero that ended slavery and our institutions of public instruction teaching it that way for so many generations, I seriously doubt there will be another chance for anyone on the side of freedom and liberty to do anything more than die in its name. There is little left but HOPE. I fly the Stars and Bars for freedom lost and liberty feigned, I fly the Gadsden flag for unity and defiance and I fly the jolly roger as a warning (well, for fun too). I own only one small "American" flag, it is stapled to a stick and bears the mark "Made in China", I keep it as a reminder of what this nation was MEANT to be. My collection will soon include the Bonnie Blue and the S Carolina state flag for it's history and symbolism during both the Revolutionary War and the war of northern aggression.

 

[spencer rifle]

Those prisoners died because Grant and Lincoln refused to have prisoner exchanges. Even after Southern officials begged the North to take their men back with no exchange, Grant and Lincoln still said, "NO!".

The exchange was stopped because the South refused to treat captured black soldiers as soldiers, but immediately enslaved them. If the South wished to continue exchanges, all they had to do was treat soldiers like soldiers. they refused, since a black soldier was anathema to them. As a famous Southern politician said, "If blacks make good soldiers, then our whole system of government is wrong."

What about the Northern prison camps? Places like Camp Douglas, Camp Chase, Elmyra, Rock Island and Indy's own Camp Morton. There are 1,616 Confederate soldiers buried in Crown Hill. These were POW's that died at Camp Morton. 26 of these men are black, 3 or 4 are Native American, about 8-10 are Hispanic and at least one is Jewish.

The highest death rate was a Southern prison - Andersonville. Though the North's Elmira was not far behind. For the most part mortality was higher in Southern camps. What food there was would not be used to support the South's enemies held in prison camps. The South's civilians and army were starving from 1863 on mainly because planters refused to grow food when they could grow cotton and other cash crops.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

The exchange was stopped because the South refused to treat captured black soldiers as soldiers, but immediately enslaved them. If the South wished to continue exchanges, all they had to do was treat soldiers like soldiers. they refused, since a black soldier was anathema to them. As a famous Southern politician said, "If blacks make good soldiers, then our whole system of government is wrong."


The highest death rate was a Southern prison - Andersonville. Though the North's Elmira was not far behind. For the most part mortality was higher in Southern camps. What food there was would not be used to support the South's enemies held in prison camps. The South's civilians and army were starving from 1863 on mainly because planters refused to grow food when they could grow cotton and other cash crops.

Yeah, it couldn't have been because the union army was committing war crimes and attacking civilians and burning their crops....

 

[spencer rifle]

Sorry, I must add that IMO, the war of northern aggression was perhaps our LAST chance to save freedom and liberty. As a result of history being re-written to paint lincoln as an American Hero that ended slavery and our institutions of public instruction teaching it that way for so many generations, I seriously doubt there will be another chance for anyone on the side of freedom and liberty to do anything more than die in its name. There is little left but HOPE. I fly the Stars and Bars for freedom lost and liberty feigned, I fly the Gadsden flag for unity and I fly the jolly roger as a warning (well, for fun too). I own only one small "American" flag, it is stapled to a stick and bears the mark "Made in China", I keep it as a reminder of what this nation was MEANT to be. My collection will soon include the Bonnie Blue and the S Carolina state flag for it's history and symbolism during both the Revolutionary War and the war of northern aggression.

It seem that history is being re-written to paint a war started to ensure the future of slavery and its extension to as many places as possible, as a struggle for "state's rights."

Look up the 20 slave law and who resorted to conscription first if you want to see who the real oppressor was here. And read the Articles of Secession if you want to see the real reasons for the rebellion, and not what the Lost Causers are trying to brainwash us to believe. Don't drink the KoolAid.

You are welcome to fly whatever flag you wish - it's a relatively free country. And I don't have a particular right to go through life unoffended. And I won't be offended on behalf of someone who was really harmed by the government the Stars and Bars represented. But I hope you will look into the real facts related to War of Southern Rebellion and move away from the Lost Cause rewriting of history.

 

[poptab]

Yeah, it couldn't have been because the union army was committing war crimes and attacking civilians and burning their crops....

the union and lincoln were perfect little angels who only wanted to help the south.

 

[CarmelHP]

That the South did not consider slavery the focus of their war is simply a lie. The Southern states, in their secession declarations, stated explicitly that preservation of slavery was the reason overriding all others for their separation. That the war was over federalism or "state's rights" is another lie told by revisionists and simpletons. The Southern states had absolutely no problem with imposing the Fugitive Slave Act on unwilling Northern states and demanding that escaped slaves be captured and returned by the Northern states.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

It seem that history is being re-written to paint a war started to ensure the future of slavery and its extension to as many places as possible, as a struggle for "state's rights."

Look up the 20 slave law and who resorted to conscription first if you want to see who the real oppressor was here. And read the Articles of Secession if you want to see the real reasons for the rebellion, and not what the Lost Causers are trying to brainwash us to believe. Don't drink the KoolAid.

You are welcome to fly whatever flag you wish - it's a relatively free country. And I don't have a particular right to go through life unoffended. And I won't be offended on behalf of someone who was really harmed by the government the Stars and Bars represented. But I hope you will look into the real facts related to War of Southern Rebellion and move away from the Lost Cause rewriting of history.

The federal government had NO authority over the states in matters of slavery. The southern states seceded from the union in accordance with the law. The union army attacked. Read lincolns own writings for crying out loud. His intent had NOTHING to do with slavery and EVERYTHING to do with maintaining federal power and control over the states.

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

 

[spencer rifle]

Yeah, it couldn't have been because the union army was committing war crimes and attacking civilians and burning their crops....

The North had no access to large areas of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Texas until late in the war - long after there were bread riots in Richmond and various places throughout the South. Kinda tough to burn crops that are several hundred miles inside enemy territory.

 

[spencer rifle]

The federal government had NO authority over the states in matters of slavery. The southern states seceded from the union in accordance with the law. The union army attacked. Read lincolns own writings for crying out loud.

And precisely which law that allows secession are you referring to? Seems that the southern states were sure the Federal government had authority over slavery, or they would not have supported and imposed the Fugitive Slave Law which overrode state's rights to not return runaway slaves.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

About the only thing lincoln did right was the way he went about reconstruction. By not holding the southern states in contempt and punishing them, he did right but in doing so he also, albeit quietly and subversively, admitted to his folly and his errs of the war.

 

[spencer rifle]

His intent had NOTHING to do with slavery and EVERYTHING to do with maintaining federal power and control over the states.

It had everything to do with preserving the Union, which was the majority position of both Northern AND Southern states if popular vote counted. Large areas of the Confederacy by fact or sentiment did not consider themselves part of the Confederacy but maintained their love for the Union. Love enough that EVERY Southern state had regiments in the US Army.

 

[spencer rifle]

About the only thing lincoln did right was the way he went about reconstruction. By not holding the southern states in contempt and punishing them, he did right but in doing so he also, albeit quietly and subversively, admitted to his folly and his errs of the war.

We can agree on this. Vindictive Radical Republicans wanted to punish the South, and got the upper hand after Lincoln's death.

 

[CarmelHP]

We can agree on this. Vindictive Radical Republicans wanted to punish the South, and got the upper hand [STRIKE]after[/STRIKE] because of Lincoln's death.

FIFY

 

[Classic]

That the South did not consider slavery the focus of their war is simply a lie. The Southern states, in their secession declarations, stated explicitly that preservation of slavery was the reason overriding all others for their separation. That the war was over federalism or "state's rights" is another lie told by revisionists and simpletons. The Southern states had absolutely no problem with imposing the Fugitive Slave Act on unwilling Northern states and demanding that escaped slaves be captured and returned by the Northern states.

If you must resort to name calling then you must certainly be without logical argument. I believe the secession was about slavery but the war was about reducing states rights. Been a really long time since I have been referred to as a simpleton. I'll be careful to avoid Carmel in the future.

 

[CarmelHP]

I'll be careful to avoid Carmel in the future.

You apparently feel the shoe fits you, as it was directed at no one in particular, and there were two choices, so feel free to wear it. We will appreciate you honoring the above promise.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

This never goes anywhere. There are freemen and there are indoctrinated men. We will always disagree and we will never find common ground. Each of us needs to do our own homework and decide for himself what he believes. There was not even a common belief during the war as to why it was being fought. Each man on both sides had his own reason for fighting and brother was pitted against brother, LITERALLY, because of their differences of opinion as to why they fought. Those differences still exist today and will tomorrow as well. One thing for certain, the issues are still nearly as polarizing today as they were over 150 years ago.