common sense carry

[danielson]

Cause we are stupid and cannot read between the lines

Who is we? I simply propose that anyone who cannot see the merits of both forms, and except them both, without spouting out the mouth about the other form, is not capable of rational thought...

 

[Bunnykid68]

Who is we? I simply propose that anyone who cannot see the merits of both forms, and except them both, without spouting out the mouth about the other form, is not capable of rational thought...

That would be the CC folks then, most JFC or OC people really don't care one way or the other but take so much **** from the CC folk that they push back against all of the stupid " you will be shot first crap"

 

[danielson]

How would you know that?
Because no one has said anything does not prove that no one has noticed.
I have seen quite a few CCers.
I rarely said anything to them. If they are CCing, then I figure they don't want it mentioned.
But that does not mean that it was not noticed.

In the same way that you wearing your firearm openly, can not be the proven reason why no crime against you happens.

 

[danielson]

LOOK.
Its fact that your statistically LESS likely to alert the people around you, of you having a firearm if you CC
Your statistically MORE likely to let people around you know your carrying a firearm if you OC

There are situations where either method might be the better or worse option. Why so many people cannot understand that is beyond me.

The problem is, you probably wont know till you can see the situation through hindsight.

 

[Bunnykid68]

LOOK.
Its fact that your statistically LESS likely to alert the people around you, of you having a firearm if you CC
Your statistically MORE likely to let people around you know your carrying a firearm if you OC

There are situations where either method might be the better or worse option. Why so many people cannot understand that is beyond me.

The problem is, you probably wont know till you can see the situation through hindsight.

We do understand that, but 99/100 times it is the CC crowd harping on the OC crowd that they are going to cost us more freedoms by flaunting off their firearms for all to see.

 

[beararms1776]

If I may, I understand a troll to be one who post inflammatory material or subject matter with the intention of causing disent or commotion. As the OP, that was not my intention in any way.

Just be careful. Some are extremely over sensitive to anything you post.

 

[danielson]

We do understand that, but 99/100 times it is the CC crowd harping on the OC crowd that they are going to cost us more freedoms by flaunting off their firearms for all to see.

What if their genuinely afraid of that? We do live in a very ****ed up world these days...

Im not saying theyre right. I just sometimes worry if Im going to wake up one day, like the Australians did, and have a notice in my mailbox telling me to turn my firearms in.

 

[stephen87]

You're trying to take a small point I was making and inflate it to my largest point, which it wasn't. Again, the small point is that only OC can be targeted for gun theft because no one knows the CC has a gun to steal.

I disagree. CC robberies are just as prevelant as OC robberies.

It's rare, but those robberies do happen. Google it. That's not good enough reason to not OC though, so no, I am not trying to say one is ok and the other is not.

I may be wrong, but it doesn't look that way.

I am making a lot of posts because I am responding to people who respond to me. I am now responding to you, so count me down for 1 more post. I like the conversation and thought that was the point of these types of forums. To share ideas.

Good. We like to see people participate. As I said earlier, and it may have been in a different thread, debate is a good thing. Keep your mind open and willing to change.

I'm Not wrong about CCing curbing crime. Most people CC and in every place where carry permits rise, crime goes down. As states went from no carry of any kind allowed, to CC being allowed, crime went down. That's a fact, you can check it if you don't want to take my word for it.

I would disagree that CC deters crime. OC doesn't deter crime either. JFC deters crime. If I'm a criminal, I'm looking for places where there is supposed to be no guns. I'm not going into a place that JFC is allowed, I'm looking for "No gun" signs.

Your idea that a store you were in has never been robbed while you were there is because you were OCing and therefore OCing prevents robberies where CC doesn't is wrong. I CC and have never been a store that was being robbed while I was there. If you use the fact that no one robbed a store while you were OCing in it, then I can use that same line of thinking to say the same thing for CCing.

That's the whole point of that. CC only advocates state that you cannot prove OC deterred a crime if the crime never happened, so OCers use this argument to "prove" that OC deters crime.

The truth is that we will find very few people who have ever been in a store while it was being robbed. A small fraction of a percent of the population actually.

There's a lot more people than you would think.

I was talking about benefits to society as a whole. Not benefits to you or to me, but to everyone which includes people who do not own or carry guns. Can you look at a person in a store and say with certainty that they are not armed? No, you can't. The reason you can't is because a lot of people, most in fact, CC.

A lot of people CC, yes. A lot of people also OC. Do you look for CC? I don't. I assume everyone is armed, then again I'm not a criminal. Criminals don't assume everyone is armed. They pick their targets pretty carefully.

A home burglar cannot look at your house and tell if someone inside has a gun. That is why in America where gun ownership is high, most home burglars (80%) case the house first to make sure no one is home when they steal from it.

I would say the reason burglars case houses before hand is time. You break into a house that's empty, you have time to be loud, go through a lot of stuff, get as much stuff as possible. Break into a house with occupants, you have to either be quiet and quick, missing a lot of stuff that's hidden; or escalate it to use force. Just my opinion.

In Canada and the UK where gun ownership is low, 50% of home burglaries are done while the occupants are in the house & they don't bother to case the house to make sure no one is home. The reason being, they know they're not going to get shot because they know no one in the house has a gun.

Candaians have guns.

In the UK, the house with a squad car in the driveway typically gets passed up because effectively the only houses that are armed are the ones that cops live in.

I'll leave this little gem here.

Do street cops in England carry guns like in the USA? I'm not talking about airport police, but regular street - Yahoo Answers

Care to rethink that at all?

In America, no one knows which house has armed occupants inside. Effectively the house is CCing if it has a gun inside, but the criminal can't pick out which house is armed and which house is unarmed. That's why they typically wait for no one to be home before robbing it.

So, your whole premise that burglars wait until everyone's gone because they're afraid of getting shot? I hate saying that I disagree, but again, I disagree. TIME is why they wait. Not guns. TIME.

I do agree that MOST criminals avoid the guy who is OCing. That avoidance is specific to that 1 person OCing, but as I said, I was talking about benefits to all of society, not to 1 specific person.

Care to tell me why so many people are mugged then? How about those criminals that are shot because they picked the CCer?

The problem is, some of the people who are staunch OCers get very defensive when you appear to be challenging that. Which from that description, I do not believe you are. But then again, I have the ability of rational thought.

Nope. Just tired of the same arguments. Not many people bring a valid or new argument to the table. We get annoyed with it. What's that last line supposed to mean? It kinda seems like a blind jab to me.

There are people who will say that OCers are just trying to show off, or act tough, just like there are people who will tell a CCer that hes acting like a criminal.

Again, same argument. The typical "compensation" argument essentially. OCers VERY rarely start arguments about OC vs CC. Find me a thread that started with and OCer belittling a CCer, I can do the opposite.

Alot of staunch OCers like to act like theyre the only who are belittled for their choice of carry, but thats just not true. Everyone is in someones crosshairs, because EVERYONE has a bug in their ass about something.

Again, find me threads. CCers are in the crosshairs of people who don't want JFC, while OCers are in the crosshairs of a lot of CCers and anti-JFCers.

Anyone with brain cell one, realizes that ANY form of carry is the best form of carry. There are certain downsides and upsides for both methods. The fact is were all in this together. Sing koombaya or some ****...

About time I agreed. JFC people.

WTF? Why don't you just quit *****-footing around the rules and lay out the insults straight on?

Because that's against the rules, so he's got to imply something and hope you know what he means so that you're insulted. He doesn't want to spell it out for fear of infractions.

Cause we are stupid and cannot read between the lines

Speak for yourself.

 

[stephen87]

What if their genuinely afraid of that? We do live in a very ****ed up world these days...

Im not saying theyre right. I just sometimes worry if Im going to wake up one day, like the Australians did, and have a notice in my mailbox telling me to turn my firearms in.

You'll see it coming. Will it happen? Maybe one day, but not in the next 20-25 if we stand our ground. I hope that day never comes, I want my kids to grow up with more freedoms than we are allowed these days. I want to raise my child to be a shooter. I want my child to grow up and be able to speak their mind without fear of repercussions.

 

[danielson]

I see it coming, probably not for another decade or two, but the urban areas have more sway than the rural areas, and I have lost pretty much lost all faith in people in the cities. Ive lived in most of the urban areas in the state, and those people live a completely different form of life, and I would not be surprised at all, if they voted to take the right to carry firearms away. They're THAT stupid. Thats really neither here or there because I dont think it matters how you carry to those people, they just have a childish visceral fear and distrust in firearms. I personally think this country is doomed, unless states start succeeding. I dont have any children, and I wont have. I dont want to bring one more person into this world. All the ones that are here already have done nothing but RUIN it.

 

[stephen87]

Only is the firearm isn't in their hand.

 

[BlackDog714]

Everything I am about to say is my PERSONAL belief. I think OC is stupid when concealed carry is available. This concept of the shepard, sheep and wolf has been bandied around on both sides but no one has stated the facts about that relationship. The goal of the shepard is to protect the sheep, not scare them, not to educate them but to simply protect them. The wolf doesn't need to know WHO the shepard is as long as he know the shepard is there. OC scares people (sheep), we are lucky enough to live in a rather conservative area of the country and most are not scared by people OC'ing. That doesn't mean that if they have no police contact that they havent scared anyone, it just means that they didn't have police contact. I am friends with several local police officers and I hear about the calls they get about "people with guns" and the contacts they make with those people. 95% are simply people OC'ing, legally. So whether or not a criminal is deterred by your OC'ing, the public doesn't feel the same way that you do. You give gun owners a bad rap by exercising your right. By OC'ing, you are falling into the exact stereotype that CNN, HuffPost and all the rest of the idiotic libtarded media says about gun owners. THAT harms ALL gun owners.

 

[danielson]

OC scares SOME ppl, it also might ENCOURAGE some ppl to carry...... Theres ALWAYS MORE THAN ONE SIDE to EVERYTHING.

Whats harming all gun owners, is the ongoing PUSSIFICATION of the average American citizen.

No one wants to see it, or they CANT see it, but Americans, are more and more, every generation, becoming less and less American.

 

[SteveM4A1]

OC scares SOME ppl,

Exactly. Not all of the public is scared of OC.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

Everything I am about to say is my PERSONAL belief. I think OC is stupid when concealed carry is available. This concept of the shepard, sheep and wolf has been bandied around on both sides but no one has stated the facts about that relationship. The goal of the shepard is to protect the sheep, not scare them, not to educate them but to simply protect them. The wolf doesn't need to know WHO the shepard is as long as he know the shepard is there. OC scares people (sheep), we are lucky enough to live in a rather conservative area of the country and most are not scared by people OC'ing. That doesn't mean that if they have no police contact that they havent scared anyone, it just means that they didn't have police contact. I am friends with several local police officers and I hear about the calls they get about "people with guns" and the contacts they make with those people. 95% are simply people OC'ing, legally. So whether or not a criminal is deterred by your OC'ing, the public doesn't feel the same way that you do. You give gun owners a bad rap by exercising your right. By OC'ing, you are falling into the exact stereotype that CNN, HuffPost and all the rest of the idiotic libtarded media says about gun owners. THAT harms ALL gun owners.

 

[danielson]

Blackdog, I understand this is your opinion, but do you not see ANY potential good about open carry?

 

[stephen87]

Everything I am about to say is my PERSONAL belief. I think OC is stupid when concealed carry is available. This concept of the shepard, sheep and wolf has been bandied around on both sides but no one has stated the facts about that relationship. The goal of the shepard is to protect the sheep, not scare them, not to educate them but to simply protect them. The wolf doesn't need to know WHO the shepard is as long as he know the shepard is there. OC scares people (sheep), we are lucky enough to live in a rather conservative area of the country and most are not scared by people OC'ing. That doesn't mean that if they have no police contact that they havent scared anyone, it just means that they didn't have police contact. I am friends with several local police officers and I hear about the calls they get about "people with guns" and the contacts they make with those people. 95% are simply people OC'ing, legally. So whether or not a criminal is deterred by your OC'ing, the public doesn't feel the same way that you do. You give gun owners a bad rap by exercising your right. By OC'ing, you are falling into the exact stereotype that CNN, HuffPost and all the rest of the idiotic libtarded media says about gun owners. THAT harms ALL gun owners.

So your opinion is that OC is what's wrong with this country? Let me put it this way.


I OC. I don't care that you CC. I don't care what your opinion of me or my method of carry is. I carry the way that I do because it fits me and my daily activities. I OC because it's more comfortable to me, while playing with my nephews, sitting in a car, running errands. CC fits your lifestyle? Great. Guess what? Still don't care. You're carrying? Great. I'm carrying? Great. Leave me be and don't tell me I'm what's wrong with America and I do "the cause" harm by OC. I'm also very active politically, I don't just go out and vote for who I think is going to protect my rights. I make my voice heard. My exercising rights does NOTHING to hurt your rights. You belittling my OC hurts our rights more than me OCing. You know why? The anti-2A look at our posts. They see you belittling me and say "Look, even gun owners think they should be able to carry openly." Then it becomes "If they can't carry openly, why should they carry at all?" Then, "If they're not carrying, why do they need them?" See what I'm getting at? You belittle us, and them it all goes downhill. If they see you standing and saying "I don't care how you carry, as long as you JFC," they are gonna realize we support each other.

The more they see an officer walk up to an OCer and walk away with no incident, the sooner they'll realize there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[danielson]

So your opinion is that OC is what's wrong with this country? Let me put it this way.


I OC. I don't care that you CC. I don't care what your opinion of me or my method of carry is. I carry the way that I do because it fits me and my daily activities. I OC because it's more comfortable to me, while playing with my nephews, sitting in a car, running errands. CC fits your lifestyle? Great. Guess what? Still don't care. You're carrying? Great. I'm carrying? Great. Leave me be and don't tell me I'm what's wrong with America and I do "the cause" harm by OC. I'm also very active politically, I don't just go out and vote for who I think is going to protect my rights. I make my voice heard. My exercising rights does NOTHING to hurt your rights. You belittling my OC hurts our rights more than me OCing. You know why? The anti-2A look at our posts. They see you belittling me and say "Look, even gun owners think they should be able to carry openly." Then it becomes "If they can't carry openly, why should they carry at all?" Then, "If they're not carrying, why do they need them?" See what I'm getting at? You belittle us, and them it all goes downhill. If they see you standing and saying "I don't care how you carry, as long as you JFC," they are gonna realize we support each other.

The more they see an officer walk up to an OCer and walk away with no incident, the sooner they'll realize there's nothing wrong with it.

Yup. This in-fighting will be our downfall. We need to learn to see the good and the bad, together, without being so selfish as to assume that because we do not understand it, therefore it must be inferior. We spend more time fighting with ourselves, than we do fighting against the actual people we should be fighting.

 

[BlackDog714]

Blackdog, I understand this is your opinion, but do you not see ANY potential good about open carry?

I never said that... I do see where there is a possibility for the general public to be ok with firearms, however in this day and age I think for the most part it causes more harm than good. The problem I have more than likely isn't with (I'm guessing) most of you. You see, most of the OC'rs I've met/seen ARE only doing it to create controversy/drama. I understand that there are only a few asshats that do this, however you have to understand that one asshat ruins our public perception. So when Jimmy Joe Bob starts yelling about how it's his right to open carry and mind your own business, it hurts us all. Again, I am not accusing anyone here that OC's of any asshattedness. It just seems that most of the public negative interactions I have seen have been from people trying to bully instead of educate.

 

[BlackDog714]

So your opinion is that OC is what's wrong with this country?

Uhh no... I didn't say that. I think that OC'ing ASSHATS (and not all OC'rs are asshats) puts ALL gun owners in harms way. As far as what's ruining the country, thats about #43,023 on the list...

As far as the rest of your diatribe goes, it's far beyond the scope of what I said or meant. Just because I believe it's idiotic to open carry, I've never ONCE said you shouldn't be allowed to do it. I think smoking is ****ing retarded but I will never support the anti-smoking laws. Stop assuming I am against you. You want to talk about our own worse enemy, it's gun owners putting words in others mouths. This isn't a public debate, its a private discussion on a private board. If they want to try and outlaw OC, I'll be right there with you supporting your cause.

We forget the old saying, I may disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it...