common sense carry

[GunsNstuff]

Why do OCers always throw that "only criminals hide their guns" crap out there?? Its just trying to instigate.

GunsNstuff: You have to compare the number of people targeted for their firearm, with the number of criminals deterred by the presence of a firearm. Unfortunately, the latter, is rather hard to quantify, but Im sure its many.

Something your also not considering is, the number of CCers who were attacked because they were perceived as no threat. Once again, unless you could ask every attacker, you will never know.

This is a gut issue people. There is no wrong or right answer. JFC

I agree that criminals have seen an OC gun and decided against an attack or robbery, but I also think that CC people deter crime as well simple because criminals know that people do it and they don't know which person is unarmed and which one is armed. Every time the news reports that an old woman CCing a gun shot her attacker, word gets out in the hood. The weak aren't always as weak as they seem & you don't and won't know which one can kill you. I've both OC'd and CC'd. My decision to move to pocket pistols dictates which way I carry today. A Kel-Tec P32 or NAA .22mag revolver would look pretty silly being OC'd.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I'm not creating an argument. I'm adding to the thought pool here. I don't think we should just decide we should open carry or conceal carry and decide no new opinions or thoughts about it should be entertained. I quoted Sun Tzu's thoughts on how you should appear weak when you are strong and strong when you're weak. Then had the thought that if we could only carry 1 way, which way would benefit society the most. Kind of a thought exercise is all. The being targeted by gun thieves was a small part of a larger point. The more interesting point to me is not gun thieves, but which way benefits society more. Personally, I don't care which way people carry.

Mr Tzu was talking about war, not everyday interactions with people. In most places with high crime you do not want to look weak.

 

[88GT]

I'm not creating an argument. I'm adding to the thought pool here. I don't think we should just decide we should open carry or conceal carry and decide no new opinions or thoughts about it should be entertained. I quoted Sun Tzu's thoughts on how you should appear weak when you are strong and strong when you're weak. Then had the thought that if we could only carry 1 way, which way would benefit society the most. Kind of a thought exercise is all. The being targeted by gun thieves was a small part of a larger point. The more interesting point to me is not gun thieves, but which way benefits society more. Personally, I don't care which way people carry.

I'm not sure introducing microscopically relevant details really adds anything. There's an increased risk I could "get shot first" because I OC. But the relative risk is so miniscule as to be nearly non-existent.

To the bolded: LE OCs. That should answer that question.

 

[DGansert]

I responded wow in an earlier post on this, because I think we have a right to carry no matter what, open or concealed. Why do you or anyone else care how I or anyone carries a firearm.

 

[GunsNstuff]

Mr Tzu was talking about war, not everyday interactions with people. In most places with high crime you do not want to look weak.

He was talking about war, but the principles apply to just about every scenario in life. When I repoed cars in the ghetto, I OC'd every day. I felt it was a good deterrent to the pissed off people whose car I was taking. But I was doing something that drew attention to myself for a living. Today I just blend in. There is nothing special about me that draws attention. If a couple of guys come in the store I'm in with guns drawn, they don't see me as a threat and don't pay attention to me, maybe giving me time to realize that a robbery is really happening and time to decide what to do. That's my thought anyway. I'm strong because I have the gun but they pay no attention to me because they see me as weaker than they are.

 

[GunsNstuff]

I'm not sure introducing microscopically relevant details really adds anything. There's an increased risk I could "get shot first" because I OC. But the relative risk is so miniscule as to be nearly non-existent.

To the bolded: LE OCs. That should answer that question.

I don't care how people carry. I doubt an OCer would get shot first in most cases anyway. It might surprize robbers and cause them to run away.

 

[danielson]

It seems like your advocating analyzing the situations you may find yourself in, and determining the most effective form of carry, to get the desired outcome. Thats pretty much JFC!! I like it...

 

[actaeon277]

I responded wow in an earlier post on this, because I think we have a right to carry no matter what, open or concealed. Why do you or anyone else care how I or anyone carries a firearm.

There are some people that like to attach reasons to OCers. Such as "they only do it for attention", or stuff like that.
Some people (myself included) think it should be up to each individual.
Or, as others have stated..... JFC. (Just F Carry)

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Actaeon nailed it. OC'ers get frequent "you're doing it wrong" comments from all over the place here on INGO. OC'ers very, very rarely ever do the inverse. Most of us are in the JFC camp but were are often forced to correct the OC record and some commonly held misconceptions.

 

[stephen87]

I agree that criminals have seen an OC gun and decided against an attack or robbery, but I also think that CC people deter crime as well simple because criminals know that people do it and they don't know which person is unarmed and which one is armed. Every time the news reports that an old woman CCing a gun shot her attacker, word gets out in the hood. The weak aren't always as weak as they seem & you don't and won't know which one can kill you. I've both OC'd and CC'd. My decision to move to pocket pistols dictates which way I carry today. A Kel-Tec P32 or NAA .22mag revolver would look pretty silly being OC'd.

How many people do you know who were targeted by a robber just because they were OCing? I OC every time I carry, a robbery has never gone down around me, therefore my OC deters crime. Saying that criminals are afraid that someone might be carrying because they don't see a gun is, in my opinion, wrong. If I'm a criminal I'm targeting people because I DON'T see a gun and avoiding the people that I DO see with a gun.

I responded wow in an earlier post on this, because I think we have a right to carry no matter what, open or concealed. Why do you or anyone else care how I or anyone carries a firearm.

This guy gets it.

I don't care how people carry. I doubt an OCer would get shot first in most cases anyway. It might surprize robbers and cause them to run away.

You obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't be making as many posts about OC vs CC as you are. You are trying to make a case for CC over OC by inserting the same argument that criminals are afraid if they DON'T see a gun and immediately target us OCers because they DO see a gun. Oldest joke in the book and still the funniest.

There are some people that like to attach reasons to OCers. Such as "they only do it for attention", or stuff like that.
Some people (myself included) think it should be up to each individual.
Or, as others have stated..... JFC. (Just F Carry)

Actaeon nailed it. OC'ers get frequent "you're doing it wrong" comments from all over the place here on INGO. OC'ers very, very rarely ever do the inverse. Most of us are in the JFC camp but were are often forced to correct the OC record and some commonly held misconceptions.

These guys have got it as well. I OC because it's how I prefer to do bidness, you CC because that's what you choose. Doesn't effect me either way, JFC so that if we're ever in the same place and need it, I've got back up already.

 

[danielson]

I OC because it's how I prefer to do bidness, you CC because that's what you choose. Doesn't effect me either way, JFC so that if we're ever in the same place and need it, I've got back up already.

Reps inbound

 

[GunsNstuff]

How many people do you know who were targeted by a robber just because they were OCing? I OC every time I carry, a robbery has never gone down around me, therefore my OC deters crime. Saying that criminals are afraid that someone might be carrying because they don't see a gun is, in my opinion, wrong. If I'm a criminal I'm targeting people because I DON'T see a gun and avoiding the people that I DO see with a gun.


This guy gets it.




You obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't be making as many posts about OC vs CC as you are. You are trying to make a case for CC over OC by inserting the same argument that criminals are afraid if they DON'T see a gun and immediately target us OCers because they DO see a gun. Oldest joke in the book and still the funniest.




These guys have got it as well. I OC because it's how I prefer to do bidness, you CC because that's what you choose. Doesn't effect me either way, JFC so that if we're ever in the same place and need it, I've got back up already.

You're trying to take a small point I was making and inflate it to my largest point, which it wasn't. Again, the small point is that only OC can be targeted for gun theft because no one knows the CC has a gun to steal. It's rare, but those robberies do happen. Google it. That's not good enough reason to not OC though, so no, I am not trying to say one is ok and the other is not. I am making a lot of posts because I am responding to people who respond to me. I am now responding to you, so count me down for 1 more post. I like the conversation and thought that was the point of these types of forums. To share ideas.

I'm Not wrong about CCing curbing crime. Most people CC and in every place where carry permits rise, crime goes down. As states went from no carry of any kind allowed, to CC being allowed, crime went down. That's a fact, you can check it if you don't want to take my word for it. Your idea that a store you were in has never been robbed while you were there is because you were OCing and therefore OCing prevents robberies where CC doesn't is wrong. I CC and have never been a store that was being robbed while I was there. If you use the fact that no one robbed a store while you were OCing in it, then I can use that same line of thinking to say the same thing for CCing. The truth is that we will find very few people who have ever been in a store while it was being robbed. A small fraction of a percent of the population actually.

I was talking about benefits to society as a whole. Not benefits to you or to me, but to everyone which includes people who do not own or carry guns. Can you look at a person in a store and say with certainty that they are not armed? No, you can't. The reason you can't is because a lot of people, most in fact, CC.

A home burglar cannot look at your house and tell if someone inside has a gun. That is why in America where gun ownership is high, most home burglars (80%) case the house first to make sure no one is home when they steal from it. In Canada and the UK where gun ownership is low, 50% of home burglaries are done while the occupants are in the house & they don't bother to case the house to make sure no one is home. The reason being, they know they're not going to get shot because they know no one in the house has a gun. In the UK, the house with a squad car in the driveway typically gets passed up because effectively the only houses that are armed are the ones that cops live in. In America, no one knows which house has armed occupants inside. Effectively the house is CCing if it has a gun inside, but the criminal can't pick out which house is armed and which house is unarmed. That's why they typically wait for no one to be home before robbing it.

I do agree that MOST criminals avoid the guy who is OCing. That avoidance is specific to that 1 person OCing, but as I said, I was talking about benefits to all of society, not to 1 specific person.

 

[danielson]

The problem is, some of the people who are staunch OCers get very defensive when you appear to be challenging that. Which from that description, I do not believe you are. But then again, I have the ability of rational thought.

There are people who will say that OCers are just trying to show off, or act tough, just like there are people who will tell a CCer that hes acting like a criminal.

Alot of staunch OCers like to act like theyre the only who are belittled for their choice of carry, but thats just not true. Everyone is in someones crosshairs, because EVERYONE has a bug in their ass about something.

Anyone with brain cell one, realizes that ANY form of carry is the best form of carry. There are certain downsides and upsides for both methods. The fact is were all in this together. Sing koombaya or some ****...

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

You're trying to take a small point I was making and inflate it to my largest point, which it wasn't. Again, the small point is that only OC can be targeted for gun theft because no one knows the CC has a gun to steal. It's rare, but those robberies do happen. Google it. That's not good enough reason to not OC though, so no, I am not trying to say one is ok and the other is not. I am making a lot of posts because I am responding to people who respond to me. I am now responding to you, so count me down for 1 more post. I like the conversation and thought that was the point of these types of forums. To share ideas.

You must take the conceal part of "conceal carry" more serious than some I've seen in public. I spot CCers in public more often than I see OCers. That's partly because OC is not as popular but your comment (in bold) is either false or your definition of concealing is different than just hiding it from view. I've seen quite a few CCers throw a shirt over the firearm using an OWB holster and call it good. Tight shirts, obvious printing, person reaching or stretching exposing their firearm, pulling up their pants constantly for lack of a dedicated carry belt and good holster, etc. Either those individuals didn't really learn how to actually conceal a firearm or they just don't care and are still obviously carrying. If all of the folks who CC did so in a manor that leaves no indication that they are carrying then, and only then, would your statement be correct. I'm not knit picking either and I don't want to come off as an a$$, but statements like yours above set people up to fail in situational awareness. I OC therefore I know that everyone around me probably knows I'm carrying too, unless they're not paying attention to anything. Your mentality of nobody knows that a CCer is carrying is forgetful that not everyone is perfect and concealing a firearm requires more than just a tight shirt pulled over a holstered firearm. To say that "only OC can be targeted for gun theft" is just simply false.

I also want to bring up that some of the most popular conceal carry holsters are completely retention free. Combine that with "no body knows the CC has a gun" mentality and you're setting yourself up for fail again.

PS: For the record, I'm in the Just F'n Carry bandwagon.

 

[88GT]

The problem is, some of the people who are staunch OCers get very defensive when you appear to be challenging that. Which from that description, I do not believe you are. But then again, I have the ability of rational thought.

There are people who will say that OCers are just trying to show off, or act tough, just like there are people who will tell a CCer that hes acting like a criminal.

Alot of staunch OCers like to act like theyre the only who are belittled for their choice of carry, but thats just not true. Everyone is in someones crosshairs, because EVERYONE has a bug in their ass about something.

Anyone with brain cell one, realizes that ANY form of carry is the best form of carry. There are certain downsides and upsides for both methods. The fact is were all in this together. Sing koombaya or some ****...

WTF? Why don't you just quit *****-footing around the rules and lay out the insults straight on?

 

[Bunnykid68]

WTF? Why don't you just quit *****-footing around the rules and lay out the insults straight on?

Cause we are stupid and cannot read between the lines

 

[GunsNstuff]

You must take the conceal part of "conceal carry" more serious than some I've seen in public. I spot CCers in public more often than I see OCers. That's partly because OC is not as popular but your comment (in bold) is either false or your definition of concealing is different than just hiding it from view. I've seen quite a few CCers throw a shirt over the firearm using an OWB holster and call it good. Tight shirts, obvious printing, person reaching or stretching exposing their firearm, pulling up their pants constantly for lack of a dedicated carry belt and good holster, etc. Either those individuals didn't really learn how to actually conceal a firearm or they just don't care and are still obviously carrying. If all of the folks who CC did so in a manor that leaves no indication that they are carrying then, and only then, would your statement be correct. I'm not knit picking either and I don't want to come off as an a$$, but statements like yours above set people up to fail in situational awareness. I OC therefore I know that everyone around me probably knows I'm carrying too, unless they're not paying attention to anything. Your mentality of nobody knows that a CCer is carrying is forgetful that not everyone is perfect and concealing a firearm requires more than just a tight shirt pulled over a holstered firearm. To say that "only OC can be targeted for gun theft" is just simply false.

I also want to bring up that some of the most popular conceal carry holsters are completely retention free. Combine that with "no body knows the CC has a gun" mentality and you're setting yourself up for fail again.

PS: For the record, I'm in the Just F'n Carry bandwagon.

You're right about that. I suppose I do take concealing literally. I carried every day at a job I had for 6 years and no one ever knew I was carrying a gun. They still don't know I was. It couldn't be seen & I never once talked to anyone about it. It likely would have been ok to carry if I had asked, but I decided to just do it and never talk about it. One of the benefits of tiny guns that most people say will just **** someone off is that I could carry it every day without fail.

 

[danielson]

WTF? Why don't you just quit *****-footing around the rules and lay out the insults straight on?

Im sorry... Are you not capable of rational thought?

 

[GunsNstuff]

The problem is, some of the people who are staunch OCers get very defensive when you appear to be challenging that. Which from that description, I do not believe you are. But then again, I have the ability of rational thought.

There are people who will say that OCers are just trying to show off, or act tough, just like there are people who will tell a CCer that hes acting like a criminal.

Alot of staunch OCers like to act like theyre the only who are belittled for their choice of carry, but thats just not true. Everyone is in someones crosshairs, because EVERYONE has a bug in their ass about something.

Anyone with brain cell one, realizes that ANY form of carry is the best form of carry. There are certain downsides and upsides for both methods. The fact is were all in this together. Sing koombaya or some ****...

I agree. Any type of carry is better than no carry.

 

[actaeon277]

You're right about that. I suppose I do take concealing literally. I carried every day at a job I had for 6 years and no one ever knew I was carrying a gun. They still don't know I was. It couldn't be seen & I never once talked to anyone about it. It likely would have been ok to carry if I had asked, but I decided to just do it and never talk about it. One of the benefits of tiny guns that most people say will just **** someone off is that I could carry it every day without fail.

How would you know that?
Because no one has said anything does not prove that no one has noticed.
I have seen quite a few CCers.
I rarely said anything to them. If they are CCing, then I figure they don't want it mentioned.
But that does not mean that it was not noticed.