Common OC/CC threadjack

[JosephR]

Yep, too many people here think they are smarter and better at shooting than the common criminal. Fine, you are. Great. What happens when you run into the uncommon criminal?

 

[ATM]

Your "facts" about OC deterring criminals wasn't about OC at all. It was about a fear of guns in general. If you were to look into it farther, criminals are more deterred by the "halo effect"- a belief that if guns are allowed, many people have them and you can't tell who. Even people who don't carry are protected by this effect as if they did. There's more deterrence in not knowing who is carrying than by looking and seeing who is.

So criminals are scared of guns in general, but more scared of the possibility than the fact? That's just absurd.
I can agree that overall deterrence may increase by not knowing and halo effect may benefit those who don't carry, but my primary concern is me and mine. I also know that currently, most do conceal. Thanks for covering that benefit to society so I don't have to.


I guarantee you that if you met a criminal with an IQ above room temperature he'd do what I'd do and shoot an OC first and keep an eye out for the CC during the shootout.

You wouldn't make it long as a criminal then. Your charge would be murder instead of robbery when all you wanted was some easy money (the most common criminals aren't looking for a hard target to murder.)

I like that some folks prefer CC. I just don't get why some hate it that I OC.

Where is the damage? If it happens like you guys say and we are no longer allowed to OC, wouldn't that make you happier? You should be encouraging us to get it outlawed, right?

 

[jsgolfman]

Wow you just don't follow along very well, do you? My analogy was to show you that even though you have a right, you may still have more than one way to express that right- a quiet simple way or a more "in your face way".
Your analogy of riding your bike? Liking to ride your bike and how you carry on the bike is in no way analogous to what I said.
I didn't ignore your scenario, I pointed out how it wasn't a direct correlation and I improved on it.
My scenario was exactly a direct correlation. Proscribing how I may exercise my right is your intent. Don't be obtuse, we both know my rights end when they infringe upon yours.
Do you get it now?

Your "facts" about OC deterring criminals wasn't about OC at all. It was about a fear of guns in general. If you were to look into it farther, criminals are more deterred by the "halo effect"- a belief that if guns are allowed, many people have them and you can't tell who. Even people who don't carry are protected by this effect as if they did. There's more deterrence in not knowing who is carrying than by looking and seeing who is.
I did look into it further, apparently you didn't. Do you recall this line:Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun. Explain to me how he knows I am armed if I don't OC?
I guarantee you that if you met a criminal with an IQ above room temperature he'd do what I'd do and shoot an OC first and keep an eye out for the CC during the shootout.
As has been asked as infinitim on this forum, show me where it's happened.

And no, it's not "Joe is right and everyone else is stupid" but more like "once again, Joe said a little too much for one person to understand all at once..."

Yes, Joe, your intellect confounds me.
Ignore initiated

 

[Denny347]

Sheeple have a hard time seeing the "other side". They tend to react to emotions and not common sense. Sheeple are great at knee-jerk actions and tend to support politicians that react the same way as them. There are more sheeple in this country than not. Scare enough of the right sheeple and BAM, OC goes away. You watch. No one tell me that it "Could never happen here." Remember, you are trying to "educate" people that could never imagine seeing a handgun, let alone own one. They will NEVER understand you viewpoint. It is not in their DNA.

I think that responsible, law abiding folks carrying their guns around in plain sight will do more for the greater good than concealed. They more the public sees people carrying and doing it responsibly the more they will realize that guns are not the problem.

If it is legal and acceptable why must it be concealed?

 

[JosephR]

Wow, make some stupid assinine claims, make up a few words and spell quite a few others wrong and then use the ignore feature? What a f*cking crybaby.

My bike analogy was a joke. When I expounded on the freedom of speech and clarified your analogy, you were supposed to hopefully understand it's not as direct and simple as you made it sound. Noone is taking away your right to carry by saying it's better to CC...

Another guy making himself ignorant by ignoring...

 

[ATM]

Scare enough of the right sheeple and BAM, OC goes away.

So don't OC or we won't be able to OC?

That's kinda like not being able to OC.

 

[USMC_0311]

Just to get in my .I joined INGO about a year ago. I had the same closed minded attitude that JosephR has. With open ears I decided to listen instead of arguing. ATM and Bill of Rights made a real impression. I still CC mostly because of my employment (no guns allowed) but I am a firm believer in OC. My only real issue, well I can't say it any better then ATM.

I like that some folks prefer CC. I just don't get why some hate it that I OC.

Really, put your personal opinions and feelings aside for a moment. Force your self to look at the other side. I think you will come to same conculsion I did. OC is a good thing for all of our rights.

 

[JosephR]

I'm closed minded? I am constantly trying to understand what's so great about OC.

I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't do it. Go for it. I'm just trying to tell you the reasons I personally think it's the 2nd best way to carry.

 

[ATM]

I am constantly trying to understand what's so great about OC.

Another thread for you and anyone else who is trying to understand:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/11237-why_i_open_carry.html

I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't do it. Go for it. I'm just trying to tell you the reasons I personally think it's the 2nd best way to carry.

Thanks for that. Fire that other thread back up with good reasons. It had a decent start but ventured off course.

 

[jennybird]

My turn to chime in here. (Keep the groans to a minimum please.)

There is nothing wrong with OC or CC. It is just as much personal choice as is the decision to wear boxers or briefs. I think it's a good idea to have a nice even mix of both OC and CC.

Here's my take... if more people would carry, some OC and some CC, the criminals wouldn't know which way to turn. Personally, I want them to see OC on every 3rd person they meet and then wonder if the rest of them are CCing. Fear of the unknown boys. It has an astounding affect on one's psyche.

My personal choice is CC. Why? I prefer to keep to myself and not lay all my cards on the table. I like to be the quiet, dangerous one that they don't expect. I keep my business to myself in all aspects of my life, including my weapons. It's just... me. I watched too much Kung Fu as a kid I guess.

Feel free to be yourself in this free country of ours. (Especially while it lasts.) But remember not to force your opinions on anyone else. Question the ones you disagree with but respect the answers you receive. It just might save your life one day.

 

[USMC_0311]

I'm closed minded? I am constantly trying to understand what's so great about OC.

I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't do it. Go for it. I'm just trying to tell you the reasons I personally think it's the 2nd best way to carry.

I don't know Joe, you say your trying to understand but what I hear is your PERSONAL opinions. Your reasons are only justified by your personal feelings. The wall you have put up leaves us little to work with.

Again I will quote ATM.

I like that some folks prefer CC. I just don't get why some hate it that I OC.

 

[kingnereli]

I too have a hard time understanding why there is so much hostility towards OC. You don't see too many OCers who spend their time belittling CCers for the carry method. Yet there is a lot of hostility in the other direction. You may have noticed that even the "Where did you OC today" thread has recently been highjacked by anti OCers.

Sure, we could all paint very specific scenarios where one method would be better then the other, but they have to be very specific indeed. If you read the vast majority of posts by OCers you see that we do, on occasion, get a chance to educate an otherwise gun leary sheeple. We don't routinely get face planted by cops responding to a man with a gun call. Most of the time nothing happens. We know places that are anti-gun and places that are not. We value any level of deterrence above some potential sneak attack. We feel OC is faster and more comfortable. We are also aware of why people choose to conceal and don't accuse those that do of lacking common sense.

It is one thing to contribute to a thread with real information and opinion. It is something else to berate OCers and accuse them of being unsafe.

 

[cce1302]

Wow! I kinda hate coming on to a new site and voicing my opinion but... Open carry IMO is silly. It defeats the purpose.

what is this purpose device you speak so highly of? Isn't it self defense? Can't one defend himself with an OC weapon?

If carrying open is done to command respect..well someone has some issues. If you chose to carry that way,be prepared to be the first target,be prepared to be checked out, be prepared to be jacked with.

First target? has that ever happened? do you have evidence of one time that a civilian was targeted by someone other than a police officer solely because he was open carrying? I am certainly ready to answer questions about carrying OC, and have several times. I'm ready to be "jacked with" I guess, if you mean that I am ready to be harassed by police.

I think it is just plain weird. Not with standing shop owners ect.,I think of it more as showboating as a general rule. If you carry, keep the thing concealed. For those that disagree you might want to take a good hard look at Indiana's intimidation laws. (35-45-2-1) It HAS been successfully used, under the right circumstances, for people carrying open combined with other factors. Even in the event of your local PO's office dropping the charge, an arrest could still be justified with the right PC. So forget about the "I would just sue the officer stuff". Just something to consider people.

Intimidation? and??? How am I going to be charged with intimidation if I don't get into a confrontation with anybody (and I don't)? That warning is as good as warning that I might be charged with armed robbery if I carry a gun. I can only be charged with armed robbery if I rob someone while I'm carrying.

To the cowboys out there,flame away, but it is what it is. Peace!

Damn guys calm down!! Look...common sense dictates that one does not walk around with his weapon exposed. It is perfectly legal to walk around with your loaded long gun slung across you shoulder. Surely to goodness you will not say that you would walk into Walmart like that ...would you? Just because you can!! Sure different, but yet the same really.

You keep invoking this "common sense." You might rethink that.

As a LEO I do not walk around in civilian clothes with my badge and weapon exposed.

hooray for you.

CCW 1 o 1-never let anyone see your gun.

OC 491-It's just a handgun. don't be ashamed of it.

To the nay sayer on an intimidation charge, make no mistake about it,you get in a tiff with someone and you have a weapon exposed, you are flirting with legal disaster. You have no merit to a lawsuit for a person calling in on you. You have no merit to a lawsuit for being detained and or questioned after a person makes a legitimate call about you having an exposed weapon.

see my comment above

People running around doing the open carry silliness will do more harm to the CCW laws in this state that just about anything.

yeah....ok...you know we don't have ccw laws?

You will find very few people as passionate as me for all things firearms-DO NOT CALL ME ANTI GUN!!

then don't call me a cowboy or an idiot for carrying in a legal, moral, ethical manner.

Be smart,don't be an idiot, if you carry a weapon,wear a long tailed shirt and cover the damn thing up. Really...we shouldn't even be having this conversation. Common sense guys...common sense. Jeeeezzzz.

wow.

People who OC are obviously just attention seekers. Not only that they don't realize the danger they put themselves and the general public in.

LOOK AT ME!!!
DANGER!! WILL ROBINSON!!

I wish more people would carry also, I just feel it should be done discreetly. i really think that if we ended up with tons of folks walking around with a gun on for all to see,there would be a push for some restrictions on carrying. We don't live in Dodge City and this ain't 1885. Not much good can come from open carry, even though legal. I can think of a lot of things that are legal. But just because they are that doesn't mean I want to do them. As for the record, in a way I think we should be like some states where a CCW is not even required,but I think out of sight out of mind is much more reasonable.

I wish more people would become police officers, I just feel it should be done discreetly. i really think that if we ended up with tons of folks walking around in police uniforms,there would be a push for some restrictions on freedom. We don't live in the Soviet Union or a police state and this ain't 1984. Not much good can come from seeing police officers, even though necessary. I can think of a lot of things that are necessary. But just because they are that doesn't mean I want to see them. As for the record, in a way I think we should be like some states where a uniformis not even required,but I think out of sight out of mind is much more reasonable

Well I like to ride my motorcycle. Are you saying I should carry it on my hip instead of concealed? I don't get what we are substituting for what...

Nobody is saying anything about how you should carry. We don't even care whether you carry or not. We're saying you shouldn't tell us not to OC.

I don't think he's given up anything or even suggested anyone give anything up.

Why are all OC'ers so touchy?

Yeah, actually both of you are recommending that we don't OC.
Why are non-OCers so antagonistic when they see a gun in public, or when they hear about a person who has the guts to carry one publicly? Want to bring us down to your level?

OK, that's exactly what I thought you/they were getting at. I found it stupid so I assumed you weren't stupid and dismissed it.

Yes, you have the freedom of speech but does that mean you should be loud and belligerent and rude to others with your freedom? Or, maybe you should exercise your freedom as much as you need to and that can be done without bothering or distracting other people.

you haven't seemed to have any aversion to being belligerent and rude in this thread. What's belligerent or rude about carrying a handgun openly? What right do you have not to be bothered or distracted? I'm bothered and distracted when I see someone driving a Lamborghini. Does that mean he shouldn't drive it?

It's not about losing or giving up a freedom. It's about keeping that freedom but toning it down a bit.

Yeah, toning down freedoms. That's what this country was founded on.

Too many people think they are going to teach/lecture/instruct others about gun laws. Most people don't give a sh!t what you think, really. It's unfortunate but that is how it is. Do you want to hear about someone's view on pro life/pro choice when you see their bumper sticker? No? Well noone wants you explaining gun laws to them.

Really? Then why do they ask??

Yep, too many people here think they are smarter and better at shooting than the common criminal. Fine, you are. Great. What happens when you run into the uncommon criminal?

The same thing that happens when you are CCing.

 

[public servant]

I've also never chafed myself or gotten a rash from a holster.

I've found wearing underoos helps.

 

[techres]

Still with the quoting! You guys are defeating my IGNORE list with the quoting!

You bust me up!

 

[chasekerion4]

I may very well be wrong, but wasn't the idea of a "concealed permit" conceived because the government thought it was shady to carry concealed?

Aren't there still states that allow OC with no permit, but require one to CC?

Obviously we're WAY beyond that now, as it's all just a money maker for cities/towns/states, but these threads just boggle my mind.

I don't care how anyone carries. I carry both ways, probably 50/50 now. And it's based solely on what I wear for the day.

Attention seeker? I don't mind you giving me attention. It just shows how easily YOU are distracted. Why would you give a **** how I carry? You should come up to me and say hello, as a fellow citizen who believes in our rights - not give me **** about how my sidearm is carried.

I don't care who you are. You WILL draw faster via OC.

To me, knowing that in a true SHTF scenario that your mind and adrenaline will be going a mile a minute, I want as little standing in the way of me drawing my weapon as possible. In my holster, it's grab and draw. No fluffing the shirt; no sucking in my gut to grab the weapon. Just grab and go.

As for the "silliness" - I've said this a thousand times... If more people OC'd, I think crime would drop like a rock.

OC=deterrance
CC=wait and see what happens.

If someone comes into the gas station and robs it while you're inside, maybe you'll shoot, maybe you won't. But as a CC'er, you had NO chance to deter the situation in the first place.

 

[Michiana]

Could someone define OC for me?

If you have a IWB holster but it is exposed is that legal and considered OC? CC means covered so your gun cannot be observed so is everything else OC? We know carrying in a outside holster is OC but what if your gun in holstered in a IWB rig with half the gun exposed? Just curious.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I would think so. It's in the open. Some members on this site were asked to cover/leave because their firearm was in sight. Period.

 

[cce1302]

If you have a IWB holster but it is exposed is that legal and considered OC? CC means covered so your gun cannot be observed so is everything else OC? We know carrying in a outside holster is OC but what if your gun in holstered in a IWB rig with half the gun exposed? Just curious.

Is it legal? Yes.

If you want to call it OC, that's fine with me. As you know, the law doesn't care what manner it is carried.
If you go to a state like Florida or Texas, for example, It would be considered OC, and illegal as they are required to CC.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Sheeple have a hard time seeing the "other side". They tend to react to emotions and not common sense. Sheeple are great at knee-jerk actions and tend to support politicians that react the same way as them. There are more sheeple in this country than not. Scare enough of the right sheeple and BAM, OC goes away. You watch. No one tell me that it "Could never happen here." Remember, you are trying to "educate" people that could never imagine seeing a handgun, let alone own one. They will NEVER understand you viewpoint. It is not in their DNA.

I can not agree here. If it is shown/done more often the sheeple would accept it. That is the defenition of a sheeple. They go with what they think everyone else is doing. So if every 10th person has a gun, everyone else must as well. They listen to who talks the loudest. Not who is right. Not saying that OC is wrong, but if we speak up they will follow.

Furthermore, if we can show them that guns do not kill people everytime they are in public we can take the fear out of them (the sheeple). They go home and the news is always talking about how someone was shot today and some police agency found a "chache" of weapons (2 .22 rifles and one pistol).

So to conclude, it IS in their DNA to follow. We just need to step up and lead.