Common OC/CC threadjack

[Pale Rider]

This is where I come to relax when I tire of the XD vs. Glock debates.

Why can't we all jut get along?

Oh, nevermind I forgot we're all big balled republicans and we (meaning me) are always right

Just seems like the same old locker room debate in a new form... who's is bigger??? My response... "I don't care! Mine works just fine (so why would i care about yours?), I can produce 'character' witnesses if needed "

 

[ATM]

I am in fear of once again jacking a thread about threadjacks.



Wish I could say it was the first time.

 

[Michiana]

Do you think that the "empty holster protests" are ok? students carry empty holsters protesting their disarmament at their colleges.
Personally I think that is a great idea. Shows how many gun carrying people there is out there. Better than a sign in this case.

Do you personally feel threatened by someone who is OCing? I'm pretty sure I don't, and I've never had someone indicate that they feel threatened by my OC. Good strawman argument.
"Like a LEO on duty." Nice inflammatory comment. How about "Like a citizen exercising his rights." I pull my pants on every morning just like a LEO on duty. One leg at a time. LEOs are not special, Michiana. You, of all people, shouldn't be afraid of someone seeing you with a gun.
I never said I feel threatened seeing someone walking around OC'ing but many non gun people do. A fair percentage of my customers are LEO's and I have yet to see one of their guns unless they are in uniform. Wonder why? The difference between you and a LEO is they are required to carry a gun for their job and you do it for self protection which is your right.

By the way, I'm sure everyone knows that there are a lot of CC handguns out there. I even carry one as a backup sometimes while I'm OCing. Your "OCers are ignorant" tone is getting old.

Never said OCers are ignorant, where did you read that? My position has always been OC is acceptable in some situations and not others; people need to use some common sense when it is appropiate.

I thought this thread is for debating the issue of OC vs CC so other threads are not hijacked? We will never agree on this subject; no need to twist what I said to suit your agenda.

 

[jsgolfman]

So if someone disagrees on your opinion of when it is appropriate they have no common sense?

No need to twist your words to suit anyone else's agenda, they work just fine on their own.

See, the great thing about rights is you don't get to define what's acceptable about my exercising them unless they intrude on yours.

 

[Denny347]

 

[kingnereli]

My position has always been OC is acceptable in some situations and not others; people need to use some common sense when it is appropiate.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

I like to tap old ladies on the shoulder in the Wal-Mart and say, "Excuse me, did you notice that I have a gun on my hip yet?" Does that count?

This is the reason this debate keeps coming up. When one person tries to tell a group of people how to carry or when it is permissible to carry a certain way. "In your face" is a somewhat vague term. That is one of the arguments against open carry in general not just based on the propriety of a situation. The criticism is very one sided in this debate. How many anti-CC threads have you seen? We're just saying OC has merit and carry how you like. Don't tell me how to carry and have a nice day. Not a big deal.

It is a shame that we not only have to contend with the liberal gun grabbers and their mass of sheeple to keep our right to carry intact, but we also have to defend how we transport our gun with people that agree we have the right to have it. Trust me. When a responsible gun owner carries a gun in the open, is polite and courteous, appears to be just a "normal" guy, goes about his day as if he didn't have a death ray on his hip it represents us all well. That is true whether it is in some "country" field, Kroger or a mall.

 

[AndersonIN]

I like to tap old ladies on the shoulder in the Wal-Mart and say, "Excuse me, did you notice that I have a gun on my hip yet?" Does that count?

This is the reason this debate keeps coming up. When one person tries to tell a group of people how to carry or when it is permissible to carry a certain way. "In your face" is a somewhat vague term. That is one of the arguments against open carry in general not just based on the propriety of a situation. The criticism is very one sided in this debate. How many anti-CC threads have you seen? We're just saying OC has merit and carry how you like. Don't tell me how to carry and have a nice day. Not a big deal.

It is a shame that we not only have to contend with the liberal gun grabbers and their mass of sheeple to keep our right to carry intact, but we also have to defend how we transport our gun with people that agree we have the right to have it. Trust me. When a responsible gun owner carries a gun in the open, is polite and courteous, appears to be just a "normal" guy, goes about his day as if he didn't have a death ray on his hip it represents us all well. That is true whether it is in some "country" field, Kroger or a mall.

Thank you for the DOSE of TRUE COMMOM SENSE!

Sorry guys but as Glen Beck said "when I leave home I don't leave some of my RIGHTS at home"!

It seems that some feel that we have some times, usually in normal conditions, "common sense" rights and at other times we have all of our rights!

Nope, I have all of mine with me at ALL TIMES!

 

[Indy317]

If you OC, you are giving up the element of surprise and making yourself the bad guy's first target.

It is usually dismissed by those who have read past debates with a statement and a question.

Surpise benefits the attacker; deterrence the defender.
And please cite examples of common people being targeted for OC.

The problem is that both of the above are good arguments. There could be robberies where the person sees another person OCing and scraps the plan, at least until that person leaves the area

However, if a person is desperate enough and needs cash, they could plan to kill the OCer, or use their already drawn gun to disarm the OCer (at that time, it would be up to the OCer to determine their choice of action) and steal the gun. If the underlying plan was to rob a store, they would likely do the above and continue on with the robbery.

In the end, there is just no way to know what is going to happen. If you are an OCer and you prevent a crime, great. If you are an OCer and the criminal see this, knows this, and decideds to continue on with their plan (or maybe even add your gun into their robbery plans), then you likely won't be having a good day.

If I go to Kroger's and peacefully shop for groceries with a visible weapon, I'm a "kook" who is imposing my views on others by "making a scene" and getting "in your face", but when others impose their views on me by making me cover up we're all "getting along"?

The problem isn't the OCing itself, it is the complete lack of OCing at this time which will likely get the law changed. Everyone is correct when they say if more people do it, other citizens will likely change their attitude, but that will take a very long time given the # of people that OC currently. The problem then becomes that a ton of anti-gun citizens who are scared at the mere sight of a gun, and some anti-OCing police, are going to start calling politicians and before you know it, there is a bill to change the law to CC only. I don't really have an opinion one way or another, but this is what could happen if the OC people continue to OC, folks flip out and call the police, and cops show up (some of whom don't know the law). It becomes a problem for:
#1: The people OCing.
#2: The citizens who call the cops, because they are obviously filled with terror.
#3: The cops as they either have to deal with non-criminal violations, or they mess up and get sued, etc. etc..

Eventually problems like this seem to end up on the governments desk for a fix. The question is, what do you folks think the majority of the population and politicians will support: No changes, leave everything the same _or_ change the law to CC only?

There would be lawsuits galore before sundown.

Lawsuits are what it will take to change police behavior, for those officers who act in opposition of what the law allows (basically officers who don't know the law). The problem is that if this happens, don't be surprised if the state law is quickly changed from OC and CC to CC only.

 

[kingnereli]

The problem is that both of the above are good arguments. There could be robberies where the person sees another person OCing and scraps the plan, at least until that person leaves the area

However, if a person is desperate enough and needs cash, they could plan to kill the OCer, or use their already drawn gun to disarm the OCer (at that time, it would be up to the OCer to determine their choice of action) and steal the gun. If the underlying plan was to rob a store, they would likely do the above and continue on with the robbery.

In the end, there is just no way to know what is going to happen. If you are an OCer and you prevent a crime, great. If you are an OCer and the criminal see this, knows this, and decideds to continue on with their plan (or maybe even add your gun into their robbery plans), then you likely won't be having a good day.



The problem isn't the OCing itself, it is the complete lack of OCing at this time which will likely get the law changed. Everyone is correct when they say if more people do it, other citizens will likely change their attitude, but that will take a very long time given the # of people that OC currently. The problem then becomes that a ton of anti-gun citizens who are scared at the mere sight of a gun, and some anti-OCing police, are going to start calling politicians and before you know it, there is a bill to change the law to CC only. I don't really have an opinion one way or another, but this is what could happen if the OC people continue to OC, folks flip out and call the police, and cops show up (some of whom don't know the law). It becomes a problem for:
#1: The people OCing.
#2: The citizens who call the cops, because they are obviously filled with terror.
#3: The cops as they either have to deal with non-criminal violations, or they mess up and get sued, etc. etc..

Eventually problems like this seem to end up on the governments desk for a fix. The question is, what do you folks think the majority of the population and politicians will support: No changes, leave everything the same _or_ change the law to CC only?



Lawsuits are what it will take to change police behavior, for those officers who act in opposition of what the law allows (basically officers who don't know the law). The problem is that if this happens, don't be surprised if the state law is quickly changed from OC and CC to CC only.

You make some valid points. There are no guarantees in the situation you describe. We Ocers just place our bet on deterrence.

I think a good first step in the OC issue is to convince fellow gun/2A lovers to ease up on the OC criticism. We need as many allies as we can gather when we tackle the sheeple and misinformed or anti-OC LEO.

I do have to say that your post has a slight twinge of the argument that we should not exercise our right to OC so that we don't lose our right to OC. I don't know if that is what you intended (probably not as you don't seem to be anti-OC). I'm saying your post could be taken that way. I'm really just saying that we don't have the benefit of tone and voice inflection on an internet forum.

 

[Bubba]

The problem isn't the OCing itself, it is the complete lack of OCing at this time which will likely get the law changed. Everyone is correct when they say if more people do it, other citizens will likely change their attitude, but that will take a very long time given the # of people that OC currently. The problem then becomes that a ton of anti-gun citizens who are scared at the mere sight of a gun, and some anti-OCing police, are going to start calling politicians and before you know it, there is a bill to change the law to CC only. I don't really have an opinion one way or another, but this is what could happen if the OC people continue to OC, folks flip out and call the police, and cops show up (some of whom don't know the law). It becomes a problem for:
#1: The people OCing.
#2: The citizens who call the cops, because they are obviously filled with terror.
#3: The cops as they either have to deal with non-criminal violations, or they mess up and get sued, etc. etc..

So unless we all stop OCing, we might have to stop OCing?

 

[Ramen]

The problem is that if this happens, don't be surprised if the state law is quickly changed from OC and CC to CC only.

The law will not be quickly changed to CC only in Indiana. The Senate will not pass that. There are too many pro-gun senators who are in favor of less gun laws, not more.

I can only see more pro gun laws being passed in Indiana. Pro gun Democrats and Republicans have majorities in both houses. Once the Republicans win majority in 2010, the anti gun representatives on the house committees will be replaced.

The main reason the Parking Lot Bill was defeated is that Representative Pierce wouldn't hear it in the House Committee on Courts and Criminal Code. He is very anti gun.

 

[AndersonIN]

So unless we all stop OCing, we might have to stop OCing?

And then they would be happy to begin with!!! I don't understand it either! I guess they just want to run away from anything that might cause a situation.

Sorry but that isn't the way my mother taught me!

God bless America!
God bless mothers!
God bless our American RIGHTS!

 

[jsgolfman]

So unless we all stop OCing, we might have to stop OCing?

 

[Indy317]

So unless we all stop OCing, we might have to stop OCing?

Kinda. If you are just OCing in a manner in which the public doesn't see it, then it won't be an issue. However, if OCers continue to OC in very public places, always getting that "all eyes on me" look, then I can see the law changing. I don't know how likely it is, but I feel that the more this debate becomes more public, the more of an "issue" it will become. Reguardless if it should be an issue or not, it will become one, and as I said before, it will land on some politicians desk for a look to see if there is a fix.

 

[Ramen]

Kinda. If you are just OCing in a manner in which the public doesn't see it, then it won't be an issue. However, if OCers continue to OC in very public places, always getting that "all eyes on me" look, then I can see the law changing. I don't know how likely it is, but I feel that the more this debate becomes more public, the more of an "issue" it will become. Reguardless if it should be an issue or not, it will become one, and as I said before, it will land on some politicians desk for a look to see if there is a fix.

I believe that any public debate favors us. The more we discuss it, the more common sense wins. The anti-gun group uses fear to convince. Although it can work, logic and reason will win out. We can win, we just can't give up or be quiet.

We should not stop OCing.

 

[Bubba]

Kinda. If you are just OCing in a manner in which the public doesn't see it, then it won't be an issue.

So we can still OC as long as we keep it concealed?

 

[jsgolfman]

Yeah, Indy, your argument lacks something in the logic department.

 

[Indy317]

Yeah, Indy, your argument lacks something in the logic department.

No, it doesn't. Look at all the OCing threads here, all the _very_ public police interactions. This is becoming a "problem issue" for some, and as such, they will demand the government "DO SOMETHING!!" It may not happen within a year, or four years, but I do see it happening in the future.

 

[Indy317]

I believe that any public debate favors us. The more we discuss it, the more common sense wins. The anti-gun group uses fear to convince. Although it can work, logic and reason will win out. We can win, we just can't give up or be quiet.

I hope so, but there a so many "sheeple" out there....hopefully though.

 

[dburkhead]

No, it doesn't. Look at all the OCing threads here, all the _very_ public police interactions. This is becoming a "problem issue" for some, and as such, they will demand the government "DO SOMETHING!!" It may not happen within a year, or four years, but I do see it happening in the future.

If we stop OCing because of fear that OC might be made illegal, then how is that different from stopping OC because it has been made illegal?

If nobody OC's then it becomes easier to ban it, not harder.

If there really is a danger of OC being made illegal then the only way to prevent that is to stand up for the right and OC.

"If a man neglect to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example." Oliver Wendall Holmes