Common OC/CC threadjack

[SavageEagle]

 

[turnandshoot4]

What he said.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Michiana, this tangent of anti-OC for the consideration of people who don't respect our rights puts you at far greater odds with the majority of this board (and gun owners in general) than even the weakest of "tactical" opinions (which most could agree to disagree on.)

You never answered the following question:


Even those who do not OC seem perplexed by your rationale.

Does this mean it's not socially acceptable to criticize on INGO the choice to OC?

 

[ATM]

Does this mean it's not socially acceptable to criticize on INGO the choice to OC?

As socially acceptable as supporting a ban of "non-sporting" firearms for law-abiding citizens here on INGO.

It makes me uncomfortable, so please... show some consideration.

 

[Michiana]

Your question has nothing to do with my position

Michiana, this tangent of anti-OC for the consideration of people who don't respect our rights puts you at far greater odds with the majority of this board (and gun owners in general) than even the weakest of "tactical" opinions (which most could agree to disagree on.)
You never answered the following question: Has history ever shown a case of a right protected by hiding it? Ever? Even those who do not OC seem perplexed by your rationale.

First of all your question has nothing to do with my position that people who outside carry around Indy and other populated areas do not help the gun cause. If it was an acceptable thing then off duty LEO's would be doing so and I doubt many do. A gun on a man in uniform gives a sense of security, the same on Joe Blow out wandering around Best Buy or Marsh Supermarket, in my opinion does the opposite. If a lot of people OC'd and if people saw it wherever they went it would not be a big thing after awhile. I doubt that will ever happen as most gun owners have no urge to do so.

I believe OC'ing does not help the cause of gun ownership. It is legal in Indiana to do so and you can walk around with your gun to your hearts content. I have lived in the State of Indiana for 18 years and with the exception of shooting ranges and gun clubs I have yet to see a private citizen carrying a gun on their hip and we both know there are a lot of gun owners out there. Maybe I don't hang out in the same areas that the gun toting people do but I doubt that is the case. It is not a popular thing for gun owners to do or you would see it all over.

I talk face to face with a lot of gun owners and not one, to the best of my knowledge thinks open carry in public is something people should be doing. They are secure enough in themselves that they don't feel the need to advertise they have a gun to everyone in town. Those are the people I associate with and respect, unfortunately they refuse to get involved in these debates and post their positions.

I thought this thread is a place to debate the OC vs CC arguement and not threadjack others. Because I disagree with your position you try to make me out as rude, un-American, anti INGO member, etc. You and I will never agree on this subject so lets stop this back and forth bander. I gave my four years to the military so people like you can run your big mouths but also so I can run mine. You are acting like Obama with his health care proposal; if they refuse to agree with you attack them with untrue accusations.

 

[USMC_0311]

I thought this thread is a place to debate the OC vs CC arguement and not threadjack others. Because I disagree with your position you try to make me out as rude, un-American, anti INGO member, etc. You and I will never agree on this subject so lets stop this back and forth bander. I gave my four years to the military so people like you can run your big mouths but also so I can run mine. You are acting like Obama with his health care proposal; if they refuse to agree with you attack them with untrue accusations.

Nobody is making you out as rude, un-American, anti INGO member, ect. You do that well enough all by yourself.

It seems like about once a week somebody pisses in your wheaties and you go of and attack someone. It does not matter the subject, it could be OC or maybe somebody is selling way more then YOU think they should.

Relevent questions you refuse to answer. The only thing you have backing your position is your and its worth just about .

 

[LPMan59]

I occasionally OC in Michiana's neck of the woods. hell, I oc'd into the Bank One on 116th and Cumberland a few weeks ago. not even an odd look.

i like the ability to be able to OC. its nice in case my shirt rides up and shows the muzzle/tip of my holster. that said, i really only OC for convenience and in areas where i believe i am highly unlikely to have use it. in Carmel? yes. 10th & Post? not a chance. of course, i wouldnt be there anyways...

i think there is a time and place for everything. OCing in your neighborhood = good. OCing at a presidential rally = bad. And its only bad because of how the media and others will demonize us. they dont care if its legal; it just adds fuel to their fire to make it illegal. it is possible to exercise your rights legally and poorly at the same time.

As for convincing the sheeple, we need lots of people OCing, alone and together, and several high-profile OC walks around downtown.

 

[Michiana]

The only thing you have backing your position is your and its worth just about .

Makes your opinion worth zero.

 

[SavageEagle]

 

[ATM]

If a lot of people OC'd and if people saw it wherever they went it would not be a big thing after awhile. I doubt that will ever happen as most gun owners have no urge to do so.
So keep discouraging and insulting those who do. It's very helpful to the cause.

I believe OC'ing does not help the cause of gun ownership.
You just admitted it would, but you keep insulting those who do in an attempt to keep the numbers down. Are you even conflicted about that?

It is not a popular thing for gun owners to do or you would see it all over.
It is becoming more popular in spite of your railing aginst it.

I talk face to face with a lot of gun owners and not one, to the best of my knowledge thinks open carry in public is something people should be doing.
While I support their personal choice, I can reject their opinions of mine.

They are secure enough in themselves that they don't feel the need to advertise they have a gun to everyone in town.
Yes, we're all so terribly insecure. Drivel.

I thought this thread is a place to debate the OC vs CC arguement and not threadjack others.
Actually, it was to call out anti-OC sentiment, such as yours. But I don't mind debating here either.

Because I disagree with your position you try to make me out as rude, un-American, anti INGO member, etc.
No, you just get hung up on being in agreement with large percentages and numbers so I pointed out that you were starting to lose people with what you suggest we give up in the name of "being considerate."

You and I will never agree on this subject so lets stop this back and forth bander.
Just thought this was an odd enough tangent to address you again.

I gave my four years to the military so people like you can run your big mouths but also so I can run mine.
I also served. Same rights. Run on, Mr. big.
You are acting like Obama with his health care proposal; if they refuse to agree with you attack them with untrue accusations.
You lost me here. What were the accusations again? (Mine, not yours.)

The only thing I remember accusing you of was avoiding the question:

Has history ever shown a case of a right protected by hiding it? Ever?

How about that... we're still waiting.

 

[jsgolfman]

It's always fun to watch Michiana in a thread about OC. He believes in your rights, as long they you agree with his method of exercising them.

 

[cce1302]

First of all your question has nothing to do with my position that people who outside carry around Indy and other populated areas do not help the gun cause. If it was an acceptable thing then off duty LEO's would be doing so and I doubt many do.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, one of my friends is a mishawaka cop who OCs off duty.

A gun on a man in uniform gives a sense of security, the same on Joe Blow out wandering around Best Buy or Marsh Supermarket, in my opinion does the opposite.

speaking from your experience? of what? have you ever done it and then talked to people who asked you questions? Most of us who OC have, and our experiences directly contradict your wild guess as to what you fear might happen.

If a lot of people OC'd and if people saw it wherever they went it would not be a big thing after awhile.

now ou'e beginning to understand.

I doubt that will ever happen as most gun owners have no urge to do so.

then just keep fighting us, and keep those nasty guns hidden for fear of offending someone.

I believe OC'ing does not help the cause of gun ownership. It is legal in Indiana to do so and you can walk around with your gun to your hearts content. I have lived in the State of Indiana for 18 years and with the exception of shooting ranges and gun clubs I have yet to see a private citizen carrying a gun on their hip and we both know there are a lot of gun owners out there. Maybe I don't hang out in the same areas that the gun toting people do but I doubt that is the case. It is not a popular thing for gun owners to do or you would see it all over.

nobody's arguing that it's popular. Only that it is legal, moral, ethical, and right to do if one wishes to do it. We don't OC because we think it's the popular thing to do.

I talk face to face with a lot of gun owners and not one, to the best of my knowledge thinks open carry in public is something people should be doing.

hmm...you'd think with all of us here that OC, you would have talked face to face with one or more of us. If you've been to the opencarry.org website, you'll see that we're by no means alone.

They are secure enough in themselves that they don't feel the need to advertise they have a gun to everyone in town. Those are the people I associate with and respect, unfortunately they refuse to get involved in these debates and post their positions.

where did anybody indicate that he and/or she felt the need to advertise that he and/or she had a gun.

I thought this thread is a place to debate the OC vs CC arguement and not threadjack others. Because I disagree with your position you try to make me out as rude, un-American, anti INGO member, etc.

link to post where anyone made you out as rude, unamerican, anti-ingo member please?

You and I will never agree on this subject so lets stop this back and forth bander. I gave my four years to the military so people like you can run your big mouths but also so I can run mine.

ah geez...let's not get into who served and for how long...it has nothing to do with this discussion

You are acting like Obama with his health care proposal; if they refuse to agree with you attack them with untrue accusations.

link to accusations? or are you untruthfully accusing us of making untrue accusations against you?

It's only a gun. It doesn't need to be hidden, locked away, unloaded, or left behind.
In the hundreds of times I have carried openly, I have never had anyone freak out, or say anything negative about any of the guns I have carried (not even a "we shouldn't have to look at that" when I carry an XD).
I have had 99.9 percent of the people I see take no notice of it. A couple have asked about it. The only experience I've had even close to negative was at a grocery store were I was asked to cover up, which I did politely, then politely spoke with the manager and security guy (the security guy agreed with me) about how their store policy was useless, and how I wouldn't be shopping there anymore while that policy was in place.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
I thought this thread is a place to debate the OC vs CC arguement and not threadjack others. Because I disagree with your position you try to make me out as rude, un-American, anti INGO member, etc. You and I will never agree on this subject so lets stop this back and forth bander. I gave my four years to the military so people like you can run your big mouths but also so I can run mine. You are acting like Obama with his health care proposal; if they refuse to agree with you attack them with untrue accusations.

Well, I gave my 11 years, apparently so you can advocate attacks on the 2nd Amendment, and tell us we should be so ashamed of exercising our rights that we should hide them, like an alcoholic hoping no one notices what's REALLY in his coffee cup. We aren't making you out as anything. Your viewpoints are anti-gun, anti-Constitution, and like it or not we are still free to express opinions we find repellent. You say you speak with all these gun owners, none of whom support OC? I'm unsurprised... you castigate in the crudest terms those who do OC. You are, in a word, being inconsiderate to us. Why on earth would an OCer choose to socialize with you? I would not, any more than I would a member of the Brady Bunch, so I don't think your lack of exposure proves much.

 

[snojet]

AirbornePFC - That is a great example of stereo typing/offending (your pictures of different people and the question/summary to go along with it). Well done. I don't have a good answer as to how we should react to those people. Actually, I do but it involves a religious nature and it would not fit into this thread. Also, thanks for sharing your experience about the Colts game and the National Anthem event.

Ok here are two real life events in-regards to the OC preference. If fact, this is the only two events that I've encountered with OC. Not try to dissuade or encourage anything here, just wanting to contribute and provide facts...

The first one happened about 8 yrs ago. I was not carrying in any capacity and was disconnected from that whole topic and guns in-general. I was at a retail store and a person came in and he was OC'ing and did his shopping with his family. His shopping interaction with others was in a normal fashion. After he and his family left, here is what I observed and overhead was the following. Comments like, "What is the purpose of him having a gun?". "It makes me nervous". "Glad he is out of here." There were other comments but that is all that I can remember. Bottom line is, that event caused a negative reaction among the people.

Now for the second event. A few days ago I was in another retail store. A single person was in the store and was minding his own business, completed his shopping and left. Had the same comments as the above event but there is more. Comments were, "That person looks ridiculous." "I didn't feel threatened by the anyone, not until he walked in." I heard one person actually say something like, "I hope the current administration can take the guns off the street." "I did reply to that and I basically told that person that we would create a lot of problems if that was to occur, I advised that person to research how that situation of taking guns away from the common man affected the society, namely England and Austria. That was the only time I engaged in the conversation and that was all I said, I was trying to be like a fly on the wall. Again, to sum up, that caused a negative reaction among the other people in contact.

What I want to highlight is the fact that people did not overtly have contact with these people OC'ing. But behind their backs (the OC's) they were watching closely and did not have pleasant expressions on their faces. On this post, a lot of people talk about how their OC experiences went and the common comment are, "No one seemed to notice, ask or care." From my limited experiences, that is simply not the case.

Fellas you continue to do whatever it is that you do, but remember not a lot of people are in agreement on your position for OC.

As for the question, "Has history ever shown a case of a right protected by hiding it? Ever?" I doubt that there is a case of that in history.

My take on carrying a firearm is that it is strictly for protection. From this thread/posts I have been given the impression that if people make a display (OC), they are trying to convince people that it is a persons right as a citizen of this country, to do so and follow/do what the 2nd Amendment says. IMHO, I don't think it will work, mainly do the fact that there will not be a significant number of people to do it (OC). I hope that there is never a high profile case that involves either CC or OC. Because that could potentially cause a change, for the most part, at this time I like the way the laws are written in-regards to carrying.

Ok, that is my .02 cents, hope this don't cause too much of a stir.

 

[dburkhead]

AirbornePFC - That is a great example of stereo typing/offending (your pictures of different people and the question/summary to go along with it). Well done. I don't have a good answer as to how we should react to those people. Actually, I do but it involves a religious nature and it would not fit into this thread. Also, thanks for sharing your experience about the Colts game and the National Anthem event.

Ok here are two real life events in-regards to the OC preference. If fact, this is the only two events that I've encountered with OC. Not try to dissuade or encourage anything here, just wanting to contribute and provide facts...

The first one happened about 8 yrs ago. I was not carrying in any capacity and was disconnected from that whole topic and guns in-general. I was at a retail store and a person came in and he was OC'ing and did his shopping with his family. His shopping interaction with others was in a normal fashion. After he and his family left, here is what I observed and overhead was the following. Comments like, "What is the purpose of him having a gun?". "It makes me nervous". "Glad he is out of here." There were other comments but that is all that I can remember. Bottom line is, that event caused a negative reaction among the people.

And why did it cause that reaction? The answer should be obvious. It caused that reaction because people aren't used to it.

The people who have that reaction to OC will have the same reaction to someone who "CC's" and whose gun "prints" or is momentarily exposed (like, say, if they reach for an upper shelf and the jacket covering the gun pulls up). And they'll have the same reaction to the idea of people carrying at all.

IOW, when the issue comes up politically, they are already people whose support you don't have.

Now for the second event. A few days ago I was in another retail store. A single person was in the store and was minding his own business, completed his shopping and left. Had the same comments as the above event but there is more. Comments were, "That person looks ridiculous." "I didn't feel threatened by the anyone, not until he walked in." I heard one person actually say something like, "I hope the current administration can take the guns off the street." "I did reply to that and I basically told that person that we would create a lot of problems if that was to occur, I advised that person to research how that situation of taking guns away from the common man affected the society, namely England and Austria. That was the only time I engaged in the conversation and that was all I said, I was trying to be like a fly on the wall. Again, to sum up, that caused a negative reaction among the other people in contact.

And, again, these people already had the negative attitude toward armed citizens. And to a large extent they have that impression because they don't have regular exposure.

Hiding the guns so they don't see them will not change those attitudes.

What I want to highlight is the fact that people did not overtly have contact with these people OC'ing. But behind their backs (the OC's) they were watching closely and did not have pleasant expressions on their faces. On this post, a lot of people talk about how their OC experiences went and the common comment are, "No one seemed to notice, ask or care." From my limited experiences, that is simply not the case.

And why do you think that hiding the guns so they don't have exposure will change those attitudes? How do you propose to change those attitudes except by providing counter-examples to the idea that guns are bad and cause trouble?

Fellas you continue to do whatever it is that you do, but remember not a lot of people are in agreement on your position for OC.

And those people are generally also not in agreement on carrying at all. It's the idea that the gun is there not that it's being open carried that's their "concern." The only thing that CC does is let them believe that it's not there, but that doesn't make them any less the opposition when the idea comes up.

As for the question, "Has history ever shown a case of a right protected by hiding it? Ever?" I doubt that there is a case of that in history.

So what in the world makes you think that approach will work now, for the first time in history?

My take on carrying a firearm is that it is strictly for protection. From this thread/posts I have been given the impression that if people make a display (OC), they are trying to convince people that it is a persons right as a citizen of this country, to do so and follow/do what the 2nd Amendment says. IMHO, I don't think it will work, mainly do the fact that there will not be a significant number of people to do it (OC). I hope that there is never a high profile case that involves either CC or OC. Because that could potentially cause a change, for the most part, at this time I like the way the laws are written in-regards to carrying.

If you want it for protection then you have to protect the right to have it for protection. What you and others are advocating, hiding the presence of the gun, hiding the fact that one has a gun, hiding the exercise of the right, and as you admit above, that has never worked to protect a right.

Significant numbers? That becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. There weren't "significant numbers" in the heyday of "gay pride" parades and the like but it was nevertheless politically effective. Consider the case of Indiana. Studies show that there are about as many people who have LTCH as there are gay adults (more than 10% in the former case, between 6-10% in the latter case). What percentage of gay adults do you think are even "out of the closet" let alone engaging in active political activity such as "gay pride" events and the like?

"It does not take a majority to prevail, just a tireless, irate minority eager to set brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." Samuel Adams.

Your hope for no high profile case is doomed to failure. It's a big country and there are lots of people. Eventually there will be a case. Basing ones plans on the hope that there won't be is like basing building codes in California on the hope that there won't be a large Earthquake. It's going to happen. We need to be proactive in creating the counter-image so that when it does happen it's just a case and not a cause celebre.

Political events are never static for very long short of total despotism. (Despotisms can be quite durable so long as nobody external is strong enough to challenge them.) The situation will change one way or the other. One cannot stop change, one can only hope to influence which way it changes.

Would you rather have more restrictions or less? Those are the choices because keeping the same for long is not an achievable goal. You've got organized, well financed, groups out there trying to ensure that the change is for greater restriction. We've seen that 75 years of "compromise" hasn't sated the maw of the anti-gun groups when it comes to devouring our gun rights. What makes you think they will stop now?

Ok, that is my .02 cents, hope this don't cause too much of a stir.

 

[ATM]

Again, to sum up, that caused a negative reaction among the other people in contact.
I wouldn't say it caused the reaction so much as it it exposed their existing bias. When a normal person going about their business with their family and a holstered firearm is distasteful, it's because of an existing faulty mindset not the actions of the carrier.

Fellas you continue to do whatever it is that you do, but remember not a lot of people are in agreement on your position for OC.
Thanks, and remember, many hate that we can carry in any fashion.

As for the question, "Has history ever shown a case of a right protected by hiding it? Ever?" I doubt that there is a case of that in history.
And yet, it is sometimes suggested as a good tactic..

I don't think it will work, mainly do the fact that there will not be a significant number of people to do it (OC). Ok, that is my .02 cents, hope this don't cause too much of a stir.

Once the numbers get up there and it becomes more "normal," maybe I'll switch.

No stir with me. While holding a different opinion, you are being very considerate.

 

[kingnereli]

Snojet,

The very examples you list are why OC is so important. If a sheeple rarely sees a citizen carrying a gun as they go about their day the suspicious, nervous reaction is likely. It is when that same sheeple sees guns as commonplace that they will become comfortable. There is no other way to show that guns are ok then to let them be seen. The fear and suspicion will go away when the notion that only kooks and gangsters carry guns goes away. Most people who OC have had an opportunity to discuss carrying with random people with varying levels of apprehension to the presence of a an armed citizen in their proximity. It isn't uncommon for people to attain a level of comfort from just one conversation with a polite and well spoken person with a gun on their hip.

As to not enough people OC to make a difference that is debatable. There seems to be, if not a movement, an increased interest in OCing. It is one answer to the gun rights equation. Yes, carrying a gun is for self defense. Though when a person decides to OC they necessarily become a liaison of sorts between the gun community and the general populace because of the attention it brings. This is not a bad thing. If we want to continue to be able to carry for protection we need to make the most of our freedoms now.

All this is in addition to the comfort and tactical advantage of OC. Can you give me a viable alternative to normalizing gun ownership and carrying. How important is it that people don't make comments after we leave? As far as I can tell that could become a measure of our success. The more we normalize guns the more the comments will turn from discomfort to acceptance. We can write a hundred letters a day to our representatives, we can rely on the NRA and GOA to fight our battles. However, in the end we are going to have to put boots on the ground to win.

If you agree that history has never shown a case of a right being protected by hiding it then you should see how important it is for us to exercise this particular right in full view of those that want to take it from us as well as those that are leery of it for fear of what they don't yet understand. The fact that people are "watching closely" is exactly what we need. Knowing this makes it of utmost importance that we make sure they get their information and experiences from us rather then the biased media and gun grabbing politicians. We need them to watch us and we need the to see what the issues really are.

 

[ddenny5]

All I can say is that I will not be buying any guns from Richard's Guns. I do not know why he is in the gun business with the anti-gun views that he holds.

 

[SavageEagle]

LoL Nevermind. Nothing to see here. I's a losetard.

 

[jennybird]

AirbornePFC - That is a great example of stereo typing/offending (your pictures of different people and the question/summary to go along with it). Well done. I don't have a good answer as to how we should react to those people. Actually, I do but it involves a religious nature and it would not fit into this thread. Also, thanks for sharing your experience about the Colts game and the National Anthem event.

Ok here are two real life events in-regards to the OC preference. If fact, this is the only two events that I've encountered with OC. Not try to dissuade or encourage anything here, just wanting to contribute and provide facts...

The first one happened about 8 yrs ago. I was not carrying in any capacity and was disconnected from that whole topic and guns in-general. I was at a retail store and a person came in and he was OC'ing and did his shopping with his family. His shopping interaction with others was in a normal fashion. After he and his family left, here is what I observed and overhead was the following. Comments like, "What is the purpose of him having a gun?". "It makes me nervous". "Glad he is out of here." There were other comments but that is all that I can remember. Bottom line is, that event caused a negative reaction among the people.

Now for the second event. A few days ago I was in another retail store. A single person was in the store and was minding his own business, completed his shopping and left. Had the same comments as the above event but there is more. Comments were, "That person looks ridiculous." "I didn't feel threatened by the anyone, not until he walked in." I heard one person actually say something like, "I hope the current administration can take the guns off the street." "I did reply to that and I basically told that person that we would create a lot of problems if that was to occur, I advised that person to research how that situation of taking guns away from the common man affected the society, namely England and Austria. That was the only time I engaged in the conversation and that was all I said, I was trying to be like a fly on the wall. Again, to sum up, that caused a negative reaction among the other people in contact.

What I want to highlight is the fact that people did not overtly have contact with these people OC'ing. But behind their backs (the OC's) they were watching closely and did not have pleasant expressions on their faces. On this post, a lot of people talk about how their OC experiences went and the common comment are, "No one seemed to notice, ask or care." From my limited experiences, that is simply not the case.

Fellas you continue to do whatever it is that you do, but remember not a lot of people are in agreement on your position for OC.

As for the question, "Has history ever shown a case of a right protected by hiding it? Ever?" I doubt that there is a case of that in history.

My take on carrying a firearm is that it is strictly for protection. From this thread/posts I have been given the impression that if people make a display (OC), they are trying to convince people that it is a persons right as a citizen of this country, to do so and follow/do what the 2nd Amendment says. IMHO, I don't think it will work, mainly do the fact that there will not be a significant number of people to do it (OC). I hope that there is never a high profile case that involves either CC or OC. Because that could potentially cause a change, for the most part, at this time I like the way the laws are written in-regards to carrying.

Ok, that is my .02 cents, hope this don't cause too much of a stir.

I see your point and appreciate the respectful way that you made it. I have to agree with dburkhead though when he said it causes reactions because people aren't used to it.

Take France for example... they run around their beaches naked all the time. It's no big deal. Try that here in the US and all heck would break loose! Why? Because we aren't used to it.

Not so long ago, women wouldn't be caught dead wearing a pair of pants. Now look at us... our evil ankles and knees showing all over the place! Appauling don't you think? Probably not, but it was at one time. Why? Because people weren't used to it.

People making snyde comments behind other's backs doesn't surprise me one bit. If it weren't the gun, it would be the hairstyle or sideburns or the pigeon toes or their weight or something.

I have a family member who believes that any man who wears a tank top in public should be arrested. She thinks it's disgusting and inconsiderate that they would force her look at their arm pit hair, especially in a restaurant where she's eating. (You can imagine my embarrassment while listening to her rant about this in public.) So, because she finds them offensive does it mean that every man must burn their tank top stash and shave their pits? I hardly think so.

Sometimes people need to live and let live. It really is that simple.