Colin Kaepernick protests the Anthem

[DoggyDaddy]

I do know that. I don't want anyone to think I support the BLM nonsense, because I don't, I do think it's nonsense. However, I disagree with the "Well, criminals kill more black people than police, so why isn't that a problem?" argument. That's a completely disingenuous argument. The definition of "criminal" and "police," are polar opposites. People should fear criminals, but not police.

I think (at least from my perspective and probably from the perspective of others who do bring up that argument), that while both are problems, one is overwhelmingly the cause of more death and pain to the black community. The number of wrongful deaths by a police officer is infinitesimally smaller by the numbers, but it gets the vast majority of attention. The other problem is the elephant in the room that very few seem to want to address. I would also suggest that taking care of that elephant first might go a long way toward reducing the former. If 5 young black men are killed wrongfully by the police over the course of a year, it's national news. When 400+ are killed in Chicago alone just so far this year, but not by police, it barely gets mentioned. Seems to be the priority should be to stop the flow from the gash in the artery before putting a bandaid on the paper cut. Both hurt, but one is certainly much more life threatening.

 

[printcraft]

Because he's not nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. Last season he was injured. The year prior, he put up solid QB numbers.

So his privilege has nothing to do with his success...... Interesting.

 

[Twangbanger]

Yeah, because while Kaep is protesting for his people, his people are out beating up 79 year old women and stealing from her so they can buy snacks at the corner gas station.

You'd never see white folks excusing the behavior of white criminals (besides mommy and daddy, of course). Most of the time, we think that white boys shot by cops probably deserved it.

THIS. I'm going to get one shot in this life to agree with (and Rep) Alpo. I am not about to miss it!

People would never tolerate hearing this from a conservative. Way to use your podium. Well done.

 

[Twangbanger]

...I disagree with the "Well, criminals kill more black people than police, so why isn't that a problem?" argument. That's a completely disingenuous argument. The definition of "criminal" and "police," are polar opposites. People should fear criminals, but not police.

...Are you implying being murdered by an agent of the govt is on equal footing with being murdered by a criminal? I don't understand this often repeated logic. A person's tax dollars don't pay criminals to protect them.

The problem is, if you shift the location of the period in that last sentence, it reveals a different perspective: a person's tax dollars do, in fact, pay criminals. And this payment has some ostensible connection to protecting the rest of society from them. We are talking about the age-old conundrum of "The State" vs. "The Hood," and which one represents the greater problem for society. We spend money on the Police. But we've also spent a lot of money on "The Hood." Tens of trillions of dollars, by some estimates, since Lyndon Johnson. The question becomes, what is the return on investment between the tax dollars we pay to the Police, and the tax dollars we pay to the environment housing the highest density of criminals?

"The State," and by extension its representatives, the Police, have progress to show in their relationship with black citizens in the last 50 years. And where it fails, there are chains of command with accountable people in place, procedures to follow, and "pressure points" where the public can apply leverage to get changes made. The procedures are followed, for the most part, and the citizen has some reason to believe things are moving in the right direction in Policing's relationship with black citizens (whether you're happy with the pace of change or not). Reasonable people can have some confidence that the system will work, overall, and will get more things right than it gets wrong. Keeping in mind, that "wrong," in this context, can work both ways (eg. the clueless lady prosecutor in Baltimore).

But who, exactly, is in charge of "The Hood?" What is _its_ complaint-resolution process? Who do we go to, when we're not happy with _its_ record of achievement (or lack thereof) for the last 50 years? By any reasonable measure, "The Hood" is completely sucking in its race for improvement against "The State." Nobody has a clue what to do there, except try to ban our guns, and throw more of our money at it. Who is accountable for results? What is our reason for confidence that any "results" are in fact forthcoming?

Well, the reasonable citizen concludes that the entity with the higher overall kill rate, and no effective improvement plan in place, is the bigger concern at this point.

And I'd have to say, based on the evidence, that's a spot-on conclusion.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I think (at least from my perspective and probably from the perspective of others who do bring up that argument), that while both are problems, one is overwhelmingly the cause of more death and pain to the black community. The number of wrongful deaths by a police officer is infinitesimally smaller by the numbers, but it gets the vast majority of attention. The other problem is the elephant in the room that very few seem to want to address. I would also suggest that taking care of that elephant first might go a long way toward reducing the former. If 5 young black men are killed wrongfully by the police over the course of a year, it's national news. When 400+ are killed in Chicago alone just so far this year, but not by police, it barely gets mentioned. Seems to be the priority should be to stop the flow from the gash in the artery before putting a bandaid on the paper cut. Both hurt, but one is certainly much more life threatening.

Agreed, and you really hit the nail on the head, when you referenced which one "gets the vast majority of attention." The question is, where is all that attention coming from? It is absolutely false that black people don't care about black on black crime, regardless what many may believe. There has been a very strong movement since the 80s. However, it generates very little attention, from media sources.
You mentioned Chicago, and it's horrendous murder rate, this year. And while you are correct, that it barely gets mentioned, you'd probably be surprised to know that there have been at least 3 large protests.... not against police, but against inner city violence. And yet, it's not nation news. You will find, that if you look, there are far and away more demonstrations against inner city violence, ranging from the very small to the very large, than police shootings. So it is demonstrably false to say, that black people don't car about the lives of people lost to the hands of persons that aren't police officers.

...hell in the 80s there were two pretty big rap songs that addressed it. "Self-Destruction" (east coast), and "We're All in the Same Gang," (west coast). They were like rap all-star songs.

 

[jamil]

THIS. I'm going to get one shot in this life to agree with (and Rep) Alpo. I am not about to miss it!

People would never tolerate hearing this from a conservative. Way to use your podium. Well done.

I thought it was definitely rep-worthy. But alas, the rep machine broke. Nearest spare part is in Nova Scotia I hear.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yeah, because while Kaep is protesting for his people, his people are out beating up 79 year old women and stealing from her so they can buy snacks at the corner gas station.

You'd never see white folks excusing the behavior of white criminals (besides mommy and daddy, of course). Most of the time, we think that white boys shot by cops probably deserved it.

Like?
Lavoy Finicum?
The Weavers?
James Boyd?
Dylan Noble?

And if people think that the police are about to "murder" someone "Waco" style.... surely they wouldn't organize, arm themselves, travel large distances, and threaten with deadly force, law enforcement agents who are enforcing a laws.

 

[jamil]

Agreed, and you really hit the nail on the head, when you referenced which one "gets the vast majority of attention." The question is, where is all that attention coming from? It is absolutely false that black people don't care about black on black crime, regardless what many may believe. There has been a very strong movement since the 80s. However, it generates very little attention, from media sources.
You mentioned Chicago, and it's horrendous murder rate, this year. And while you are correct, that it barely gets mentioned, you'd probably be surprised to know that there have been at least 3 large protests.... not against police, but against inner city violence. And yet, it's not nation news. You will find, that if you look, there are far and away more demonstrations against inner city violence, ranging from the very small to the very large, than police shootings. So it is demonstrably false to say, that black people don't car about the lives of people lost to the hands of persons that aren't police officers.

...hell in the 80s there were two pretty big rap songs that addressed it. "Self-Destruction" (east coast), and "We're All in the Same Gang," (west coast). They were like rap all-star songs.

Here in the Louisville area I see on the news, pastors and groups coming together to stop violence. But the only strategy I see is to will it away through marches and protests. What are they protesting? What will that solve? Carrying a sign that says "stop the violence" doesn't do anything except give a false sense of working to solve problems. Being active doesn't solve anything. Being active to attack the core problems does.

I am glad to see the pastors bring these groups together. I'd just like to see them work more effectively on the actual problems. Is protesting going to get people off of welfare, or out of poverty? What are they doing to solve that fundamental problem? What are they doing to help parents raise their kids to be more immune to cultures of violence? What are they doing to ensure the kids in their communities are getting quality educations. What are they doing to help get violent people out of their neighborhoods and behind bars?

There are some core problems that they could attack that would help decrease the culture of violence. But not having enough marches and protests, and not carrying enough signs, isn't one of those core problems that cause inner-city violence. Marches and protests remind me of the folly of candle lit vigils. Not having enough lit candles at a given time doesn't actually cause many problems, and it likely didn't cause the problem they're trying to solve. So why do it? Marching, protesting, carrying signs, candle lit vigils, those are just exercises people do to *feel* like they're doing something, even though they're really not contributing any actual solutions.

 

[jamil]

Like?
Lavoy Finicum?
The Weavers?
James Boyd?
Dylan Noble?

And if people think that the police are about to "murder" someone "Waco" style.... surely they wouldn't organize, arm themselves, travel large distances, and threaten with deadly force, law enforcement agents who are enforcing a laws.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes the cops ARE in the wrong in shooting blacks and shooting whites. Probably that is accounted for in "most". So it's okay if you find a few counterexamples. There are counterexamples on the other side too.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes the cops ARE in the wrong in shooting blacks and shooting whites. Probably that is accounted for in "most". So it's okay if you find a few counterexamples. There are counterexamples on the other side too.

I'm clear, I'm just refuting Alpo contention that white people are generally ok with most of the shootings of white people, by police, and black people (assumedly) are not.... especially here in the Indy area, where we are devoid of such protesting, and IMPD, and other agencies, I'm sure have sent plenty of bad people to their maker.

 

["Username"]

Like?

And if people think that the police are about to "murder" someone "Waco" style....

People should fear criminals but not the police.

 

[Kutnupe14]

People should fear criminals but not the police.

Just as ridiculous as when Black people say it. Obeying the law tends to keep people, all people, from meeting early ends.

 

["Username"]

I do agree that the statement "People should fear criminals but not the police" is ridiculous.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I do agree that the statement "People should fear criminals but not the police" is ridiculous.

So you understand the BLM argument? You must be disappointed in the responses you got in the thread you started.

 

["Username"]

So you understand the BLM argument? You must be disappointed in the responses you got in the thread you started.

The ridiculous statement that "People should fear criminals but not the police" is yours.

I understand BLM is a socialist movement, and nothing more.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The ridiculous statement that "People should fear criminals but not the police" is yours.

I understand BLM is a socialist movement, and nothing more.

So you really don't understand. I think most INGO members, would disagree, that it's "nothing more." I guess asking "what" it is was a genuine question, as you are quite limited in your understanding of it?

 

["Username"]

I don't know whether most ingo members would agree or disagree.

Does the agreement or disagreement of a majority change the truth?

“Some men say the earth is flat.
Some men say the earth is round.
But if it is flat. Could Parliament make it round?
And if it round. Could the kings command flatten it?”

I will concede that "black lives matters" is a socialist movement accompanied by useful idiots.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I don't know whether most ingo members would agree or disagree.

Does the agreement or disagreement of a majority change the truth?

“Some men say the earth is flat.
Some men say the earth is round.
But if it is flat. Could Parliament make it round?
And if it round. Could the kings command flatten it?”

I will concede that "black lives matters" is a socialist movement accompanied by useful idiots.

"....And nothing more." I think most people would disagree with that, and the video you posted in your thread makes no reference to that. I'd further challenge you to point out the similarities the movement has to actual socialist movements, that aren't found in other political/economic movements. Given your inherent fear of police, I'm trying to figure out exactly how you are different from BLM supporters. You can't have it both ways. You can't imply an inherent fear of all police, while at the same time scratching your head in disbelief at the purpose of the BLM. From the flashpoint from where it began in social media, I'm having difficulty making the socialism connection.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Agreed, and you really hit the nail on the head, when you referenced which one "gets the vast majority of attention." The question is, where is all that attention coming from? It is absolutely false that black people don't care about black on black crime, regardless what many may believe. There has been a very strong movement since the 80s. However, it generates very little attention, from media sources.
You mentioned Chicago, and it's horrendous murder rate, this year. And while you are correct, that it barely gets mentioned, you'd probably be surprised to know that there have been at least 3 large protests.... not against police, but against inner city violence. And yet, it's not nation news. You will find, that if you look, there are far and away more demonstrations against inner city violence, ranging from the very small to the very large, than police shootings. So it is demonstrably false to say, that black people don't car about the lives of people lost to the hands of persons that aren't police officers.

...hell in the 80s there were two pretty big rap songs that addressed it. "Self-Destruction" (east coast), and "We're All in the Same Gang," (west coast). They were like rap all-star songs.

I would hope that that is true Kut (that black people do care about the lives of people lost to the hands of persons that aren't police officers.), but (perhaps through no fault of their own), that is not what is receiving the attention. People helping themselves doesn't generate clicks and advertising revenue (or political contributions) as much as the appearance of victimhood. In that regard, I feel that BLM is doing themselves and the community which they purport to defend a great disservice. By doing so, they just play into the media game and perhaps even strengthen the stereotypes that some people hold.

 

[oldpink]

I would hope that that is true Kut (that black people do care about the lives of people lost to the hands of persons that aren't police officers.), but (perhaps through no fault of their own), that is not what is receiving the attention. People helping themselves doesn't generate clicks and advertising revenue (or political contributions) as much as the appearance of victimhood. In that regard, I feel that BLM is doing themselves and the community which they purport to defend a great disservice. By doing so, they just play into the media game and perhaps even strengthen the stereotypes that some people hold.

Quite
It will be a great day when the culture of victimology (with various groups jockeying to be at the top of this crazy hierarchy) we are beset by is finally discarded.