Cleveland 12 yr old with toy gun shot in park

[chipbennett]

Who saw that? The police don't claim to have seen him pointing the gun at anyone.

The people who called 911 saw it. The video corroborated the claim.

The video clearly shows that he didn't have it in his hand as they rolled up.

...which makes his initial move to yank up his sweatshirt and reach for the pistol in his waistband all that much more of a fatal move.

 

[Que]

You're Right!
It's exactly the same thing -





One is inspired by a movie star and wants to be the hero and the other is inspired by his older brother and wants to be a gangbanger.
Totally the same.

This makes no sense. How can you reasonably determine which is playing the hero from a movie and which is playing a criminal? I thought the bad guys usually wore black hats in the cowboy flicks?

It's sad to see every time a person from a certain background is killed, the most unflattering pictures are used to justify why they should have died. The fact is, image plays an important role in the minds of people who are in situations like the police officer in this case. His thoughts were very much like yours when he pulled up and that is why the child (man to some) is dead now. Was the shooting justified? Yes, it has been determined by the system that it was, so we must move on. The lesson really is to stop children from playing with toy guns, period.

 

[jamil]

I don't know that race played a role in the incident. On the other hand, in the AAR on INGO? I'm pretty sure it has.

I think if it were a white kid, maybe the cop would still have assumed that the gun was real. But I think the chances are better that a white cop would assume a black kid is waving a real gun.

And I think it's okay for us to acknowledge that we tend to stereotype people on many criteria. Race, sex, and behavior are typical attributes we use to make assumptions. And I have to be honest with myself. I would probably be more likely to assume that the gun is real if a black kid is behaving like that. And it's not all my fault that I have those biases. We learn those from experience.

 

[jamil]

This makes no sense. How can you reasonably determine which is playing the hero from a movie and which is playing a criminal? I thought the bad guys usually wore black hats in the cowboy flicks?

It's sad to see every time a person from a certain background is killed, the most unflattering pictures are used to justify why they should have died. The fact is, image plays an important role in the minds of people who are in situations like the police officer in this case. His thoughts were very much like yours when he pulled up and that is why the child (man to some) is dead now. Was the shooting justified? Yes, it has been determined by the system that it was, so we must move on. The lesson really is to stop children from playing with toy guns, period.

I don't think that's the takeaway. From the narrative it seems to me like the kid was trying to intimidate people by making them think it was a real gun. That's the behavior that should be stopped. I played with toy guns as a child and it should be a harmless activity.

 

[Que]

I think if it were a white kid, maybe the cop would still have assumed that the gun was real. But I think the chances are better that a white cop would assume a black kid is waving a real gun.

And I think it's okay for us to acknowledge that we tend to stereotype people on many criteria. Race, sex, and behavior are typical attributes we use to make assumptions. And I have to be honest with myself. I would probably be more likely to assume that the gun is real if a black kid is behaving like that. And it's not all my fault that I have those biases. We learn those from experience.

Yep, we all have biases and prejudices and because of this mistakes can be made. The issue is, these mistakes are never acknowledged and just continue as acceptable practices.

 

[injb]

The people who called 911 saw it. The video corroborated the claim.



...which makes his initial move to yank up his sweatshirt and reach for the pistol in his waistband all that much more of a fatal move.

What makes you assert that he reached for the gun? It's certainly not clear in the video. Maybe he hadn't been properly indoctrinated in the art of being arrested, and he thought he was cooperating by showing them where the gun was. They escalated the situation by approaching him the way they did. No reasonable person could be expected to know how to react in that situation, let a lone a 12 year old child.

 

[Que]

I don't think that's the takeaway. From the narrative it seems to me like the kid was trying to intimidate people by making them think it was a real gun. That's the behavior that should be stopped. I played with toy guns as a child and it should be a harmless activity.

You are right on this point, but the intimidation could be hard to determine, especially if the words cannot be heard. If it were my son, I would prefer erring on the side of safety, though.

 

[chipbennett]

What makes you assert that he reached for the gun? It's certainly not clear in the video.

It was clear from the video, from day one. I remember watching the press conference when the video was released. The video was slowed down, frame-by-frame. He yanked up his sweatshirt and exposed the pistol in his waistband, and reached for it.

Further: Rice waistband-tucked the pistol earlier in the video. The pistol was found next to him, as if dropped when he was shot. It doesn't do that if it is tucked in his waistband when he was shot.

Maybe he hadn't been properly indoctrinated in the art of being arrested, and he thought he was cooperating by showing them where the gun was.

Really? He was 12, not 6.

They escalated the situation by approaching him the way they did. No reasonable person could be expected to know how to react in that situation, let a lone a 12 year old child.

Every reasonable person would know to put your hands up in that situation.

 

[HoughMade]

I think if it were a white kid, maybe the cop would still have assumed that the gun was real. But I think the chances are better that a white cop would assume a black kid is waving a real gun...

I don't know. As far as the original incident is concerned, I have not reached any conclusion other than the death of that kid is a crying shame and a tragedy.

What I have found interesting (not in a good way) is the kneejerk "thug life" that's been superimposed on this kid without much support and with plenty of assumptions.

As for throwing up supposed "gang signs" in pictures, that's an indicator of an underlying criminal element? Spend some time with Google image:

C'mon.

 

[femurphy77]

He threatened people with what a reasonable person would believe to be a 1911-style pistol. I don't remember the statutory definition in Ohio, but whether it is brandishing, threatening, or something else, that's what he was doing.

And why do people insist on referring to this as a "toy gun"?

View attachment 42162

Um, because it is/was?? I'm talking about the one he had not the one in the pic because I don't know if the one in the pic is one and the same. Regardless, he had a toy gun! Don't matter, he's dead!

 

[femurphy77]

I don't know. As far as the original incident is concerned, I have not reached any conclusion other than the death of that kid is a crying shame and a tragedy.

What I have found interesting (not in a good way) is the kneejerk "thug life" that's been superimposed on this kid without much support and with plenty of assumptions.

As for throwing up supposed "gang signs" in pictures, that's an indicator of an underlying criminal element? Spend some time with Google image:

C'mon.

 

[chipbennett]

Um, because it is/was?? I'm talking about the one he had not the one in the pic because I don't know if the one in the pic is one and the same. Regardless, he had a toy gun! Don't matter, he's dead!

That is the EXACT GUN that Tamir Rice had. That's the evidence box that it was placed in.

AirSoft pistols are not "toy guns". Something that is so realistic looking that it is visually indistinguishable from a real, 1911-style pistol, when used in a threatening manner, is not a toy.

If someone drew down on you with that very pistol, what would your reaction be?

EDIT:

I double-checked. Here is the exact gun:

View attachment 42173

Can you tell that apart from the one above?

 

[Kutnupe14]

That is the EXACT GUN that Tamir Rice had. That's the evidence box that it was placed in.

AirSoft pistols are not "toy guns". Something that is so realistic looking that it is visually indistinguishable from a real, 1911-style pistol, when used in a threatening manner, is not a toy.

If someone drew down on you with that very pistol, what would your reaction be?

EDIT:

I double-checked. Here is the exact gun:

View attachment 42173

Can you tell that apart from the one above?

I had this as a kid. It's pack away somewhere in my parent's basement (tho beat to hell). But pretty realistic 'eh?

View attachment 42174

 

[Denny347]

Um, because it is/was?? I'm talking about the one he had not the one in the pic because I don't know if the one in the pic is one and the same. Regardless, he had a toy gun! Don't matter, he's dead!

Being a toy is irrelevant. Look at the pic, would any of us be able to tell it was a toy without getting up close and handling it? Kids are stealing these form Walmart to use them for robberies. They would not be able to get away with the robberies if people did not think they were real. Like I've said before, we are getting a rash of 11-13yr olds doing business robberies lately. The age of potential threats has just gone down. They are committing burglaries, stealing cars, etc. What we did as kids 35 years ago is NOT acceptable anymore. The ONLY guns kids had back then were toys and it was 100% unheard of for anyone under 16-18 to be doing the crimes that we see now. Now, it is 100% realistic to believe a child could be a threat. Add that, kids these days are looking older than they are. I have trouble guessing the ages of many kids as they look older. A kid pointing a gun at people is a valid threat and should be treated as such. I am guessing that many here will tell us that if faced with this scenario that they would rather take a bullet than assume the real looking gun was actually real. That's fine, but can you gamble the life of your partner with that same stance? How about an innocent bystander? Those are considerations one must weigh within milliseconds. It is hard to know how you'd react until you are there and the one making the decision. I will tell you, it sucks. No one wants to be in this position. Sometimes you have no choice.

 

[Denny347]

I had this as a kid. It's pack away somewhere in my parent's basement (tho beat to hell). But pretty realistic 'eh?

View attachment 42174

Dimensions are all off.

 

[chipbennett]

I had this as a kid. It's pack away somewhere in my parent's basement (tho beat to hell). But pretty realistic 'eh?

View attachment 42174

I pity the fool who messed with you.

That said, even though it is phenomenally realistic for, what, the early 80s? It would be difficult to threaten someone with it. Also, I'm sure your parents taught you not to go around a public park, pointing it menacingly at people.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Dimensions are all off.

Lol, I killed many a German with that thing (Patch Barracks)

Kut ('s favorite movie at that age was Patton, on Betamax)

 

[Kutnupe14]

I pity the fool who messed with you.

That said, even though it is phenomenally realistic for, what, the early 80s? It would be difficult to threaten someone with it. Also, I'm sure your parents taught you not to go around a public park, pointing it menacingly at people.

I honestly don't know. I was a kid with a bunch of friends, and we were on a military post. Truth be told, I don't even remember seeing MPs patrolling. They were only at the gates. Kids at that age rarely change. You give a young kid something that looks like a gun, and I'm confident most will point it at people, especially if they understand it's not real, even though it "looks" real. I'd certainly say this is a failure on the parent's part, as no parent (especially a black parent) should let their child play with something so realistic in today's world.

 

[chipbennett]

I honestly don't know. I was a kid with a bunch of friends, and we were on a military post. Truth be told, I don't even remember seeing MPs patrolling. They were only at the gates. Kids at that age rarely change. You give a young kid something that looks like a gun, and I'm confident most will point it at people, especially if they understand it's not real, even though it "looks" real. I'd certainly say this is a failure on the parent's part, as no parent (especially a black parent) should let their child play with something so realistic in today's world.

I remember playing with cap guns, LaserTag guns, SuperSoakers, and I'm sure, other guns that I've forgotten about. I always knew that we were NEVER to point any gun at someone not involved in our play. I agree: the largest part of the failure here is on the part of Tamir Rice's parents.

 

[phylodog]

I am guessing that many here will tell us that if faced with this scenario that they would rather take a bullet than assume the real looking gun was actually real.

I'm not one of them. It's obviously extremely subjective and situation dependent but someone pointing a realistic looking gun at me and making an effort to convince me that it is real is going to be successful and receive the appropriate response.

I keep the above pictured "toy" gun in my desk at the office. I've made more than a few people, people who are well trained and experienced with a wide variety of firearms, nervous when they walk in the door and I'm handling it. It looks, sounds and feels like a 1911. The safety, trigger and slide work just like a real 1911. Whatever protective cap it had on the barrel has been removed.

It was taken off of a 14 year old "kid" who was caught sneaking around a closed business at 1am.