CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

I remember hearing the Ezekiel comparison to a spacecraft when I was a kid. Totally sounded like a plausible interpretation.

 

[JeepHammer]

I probably shouldn't wade into this discussion, but you need to read some history to understand that in the past, some Christians have thought slavery was okay. In fact, during the Civil War, the South declared their constitution invoked the favor and guidance of Almighty God and many, many Southern Baptist preachers used the Bible to support slavery. That, unfortunately, is a fact.

I've run into it myself.
One of the local sects has proponents of the worst parts of the bible.

I have a physical reaction to the thought, so actually seeing it probably wouldn't turn out well.

 

[rvb]

as I said , there are people on the fringes. there always have been. we could also talk about Christian abolitionists.

And bringing history into it, we also have to understand that in old testament times, slavery didn't always have the same meaning as we think of it today. Often it was more like indentured servitude, sometimes even apprenticeship. This is why when the OT talks about how to treat slaves, it includes things like releasing them after a certain time has past, under what circumstances to extend keeping them around, etc. It was often a means of survival for the lowest classes. The Israelites had escaped Egypt, they new what true bondage felt like. Why would God help them escape only to say, now "do unto others as has been done to you?" Sounds good coming from Metallica, but I doubt that was God's guidance.

People mis-interpreting the Bible, or interpreting in a way that suits them is nothing new. I think that indicts the individuals, not the religion, nor God.

-rvb

 

[JeepHammer]

I remember hearing the Ezekiel comparison to a spacecraft when I was a kid. Totally sounded like a plausible interpretation.

I don't know, but 'Wheels within wheels' is interesting...
A vision/hallucination/sighting of a giant machine in a time of very few and mostly small/simple machines (made of mostly wood) existed, that is interesting on its own.
Not exactly the industrial age, or even the iron age in full swing when that story was related...

Has anyone seen a single mast, twin rotor helicopter from directly below, or with pained rotor tips from the side?
Fairly common across the pond and freaky even for people that are used to choppers...
I was so used to choppers I didn't even look up anymore, but everytime I saw one of those it kind of hypnotized me, I couldn't look away.

Again, I think I would have opted for running in terror...

 

[indiucky]

I remember hearing the Ezekiel comparison to a spacecraft when I was a kid. Totally sounded like a plausible interpretation.

Erik Von Daniken.....And Journey....

[video=youtube;MxGEVIvSFeY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxGEVIvSFeY[/video]

 

[JettaKnight]

I probably shouldn't wade into this discussion, but you need to read some history to understand that in the past, some Christians have thought slavery was okay. In fact, during the Civil War, the South declared their constitution invoked the favor and guidance of Almighty God and many, many Southern Baptist preachers used the Bible to support slavery. That, unfortunately, is a fact.

Since you did wade into these waters.... (Welcome! )


You're right, the Southern Baptist have a strong historical tie to slavery.


What I always wonder is that in modern ties, you hear from the outside that the church's stance on homosexuality is akin to a past stance on slavery.

First, Biblically speaking, there's a whole lot wrong with that statement.
Second, What scripture and reasoning was professed from the pulpit in 1800's South?

I'm really, really curious was being preached, and post reconciliation, what wasn't being preached.

I haven't been able to find the podcast from any church of that time and place.

I've run into it myself.
One of the local sects has proponents of the worst parts of the bible.

I have a physical reaction to the thought, so actually seeing it probably wouldn't turn out well.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this "sect" and their preaching.

 

[JeepHammer]

as I said , there are people on the fringes. there always have been. we could also talk about Christian abolitionists.

And bringing history into it, we also have to understand that in old testament times, slavery didn't always have the same meaning as we think of it today. Often it was more like indentured servitude, sometimes even apprenticeship. This is why when the OT talks about how to treat slaves, it includes things like releasing them after a certain time has past, under what circumstances to extend keeping them around, etc. It was often a means of survival for the lowest classes. The Israelites had escaped Egypt, they new what true bondage felt like. Why would God help them escape only to say, now "do unto others as has been done to you?" Sounds good coming from Metallica, but I doubt that was God's guidance.

People mis-interpreting the Bible, or interpreting in a way that suits them is nothing new. I think that indicts the individuals, not the religion, nor God.

-rvb

I find that odd when you connect apprenticeship with indentured and slaves...

My family doesn't know it's traditional name...
My first ancestor into this country was taken into the 'Church' as a 'Foundling', as in 'Found'.
His version is he was kidnapped at about 5 years old.

Carrying children off, along with taking in orphans or abandoned wasn't unusual for centuries.

He was worked unmercifully for years, but taught to read/write to keep track of church business.
At 12 he and others were stuffed into a cargo ship and transported to 'The Colonies'.
He was SOLD into 'Indentured Servitude' by the church elder.

He escaped servitude at 15 and fled into the 'Frontier' to live with the 'Savages'.
He was hunted for years as a thief and escapee because he left with cloths & an axe. The cloths on his back belonged to his 'Master'.

We know this simply because he could read & write, and his only possession was a bible he wrote his story on as it happened.
We verified as much as we could, including his land claim in north/central Kentucky, which verified the date in his bible.

He had 3 wives, 13 surviving children, cleared 60 acres, cut & sold timer & lumber and farmed it with his family.
He also wrote for the local newsletter.
Not surprising he was an abolitionist, even in colonial times...

I'm not sure there was a difference between free men being sold into indentured servitude & slaves, and I know for a fact that children being sold is slavery no matter what name they hang on it.
He was sold as an apprentice since white men couldn't be sold as slaves, but being sold IS slavery, particularly at 13 years old.

I'm aware the church/Christans have done good & bad, this is just ONE particular story.

... And we still don't know his European surname, we thought we were English since that's where he came from, but DNA says he was probably French.
That would make sense because England & France were at each other's throats for centuries... And I'm sure kids got carried off both directions...
It was a practice of the time.

I'm just glad to know he wasn't a murderer shipped here as punishment!
I remember the the story a couple decades back about the woman claiming 'Mayflower' or some such (first colonists) and when it all came out, her ancestor was a horse thief & petty criminal that came over on a prison ship as an inmate, had children with a prostitute, wound up being hung for murder!
You don't get to pick your family... And you can't blame current followers for what a religion did in the distant past...
It's evolution of the religion (irony intended!)

 

[indiucky]

Ard Louis does a good job here on Genesis....

[video=youtube;s3uUAgyJfNo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3uUAgyJfNo[/video]

 

[T.Lex]

Second, What scripture and reasoning was professed from the pulpit in 1800's South?

I'm really, really curious was being preached, and post reconciliation, what wasn't being preached.

My kids actually studied this in Catholic school. The pro-slavery groups basically preached that since slavery was in the Bible, that it was appropriate.

The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]

After the South lost, I think the preaching was that the movement away from biblical teachings was further evidence of the erosion of Christianity in the US.

 

[indiucky]

And just like that the science of Taxonomy came to be......

 

[JettaKnight]

People mis-interpreting the Bible, or interpreting in a way that suits them is nothing new. I think that indicts the individuals, not the religion, nor God.

-rvb

THIS.

James Sire wrote a short book called Scripture Twisting (InterVarsity Press) some years ago. It mostly targets Mormons, but is a good introduction and toolkit on how to be on-guard. Most of the time it's harmless cherry-picking, e.g. Reading I Cor 13 at weddings. But other times it's more pernicious.

Sire actually wrote a lot of good books, mostly aimed at college students trying to figure out what they really believe now that mom and dad isn't there to make them go to church (or keep them out) and offers good insight without being tough reads.

 

[historian]

as I said , there are people on the fringes. there always have been. we could also talk about Christian abolitionists.

And bringing history into it, we also have to understand that in old testament times, slavery didn't always have the same meaning as we think of it today. Often it was more like indentured servitude, sometimes even apprenticeship. This is why when the OT talks about how to treat slaves, it includes things like releasing them after a certain time has past, under what circumstances to extend keeping them around, etc. It was often a means of survival for the lowest classes. The Israelites had escaped Egypt, they new what true bondage felt like. Why would God help them escape only to say, now "do unto others as has been done to you?" Sounds good coming from Metallica, but I doubt that was God's guidance.

People mis-interpreting the Bible, or interpreting in a way that suits them is nothing new. I think that indicts the individuals, not the religion, nor God.

-rvb

I really don't want to wade into this...but I'm obligated to. Dulos in Greek means slave. Not servant. Slaves in Roman times were legally dead. Period. They had no rights. The Romans didn't care what you did. We like to pretty up the Bible (Philemon is a pretty passive-aggressive attack on slavery as an institution), but it isn't there. When James says "A slave of Jesus Christ" he means he has no rights of his own. Jesus is literally his master. So...there is a difference between OT and NT when talking about slavery/servants, but in the NT, it is slave.

Now. Old Testament servants were different and the Levitical Law was very good to servants compared to ancient cultures.

 

[JettaKnight]

... this is just ONE particular story....

That's a good story. My ancestors were just a bunch of boring Quakers.



PS - T.Lex thanks for the link; and Indiucky, thanks for the videos.

 

[rvb]

I really don't want to wade into this...but I'm obligated to. Dulos in Greek means slave. Not servant. Slaves in Roman times were legally dead. Period. They had no rights. The Romans didn't care what you did. We like to pretty up the Bible (Philemon is a pretty passive-aggressive attack on slavery as an institution), but it isn't there. When James says "A slave of Jesus Christ" he means he has no rights of his own. Jesus is literally his master. So...there is a difference between OT and NT when talking about slavery/servants, but in the NT, it is slave.

Now. Old Testament servants were different and the Levitical Law was very good to servants compared to ancient cultures.

I'm not sure if you're arguing against what I said, or for it....

so I'm a slave for Christ. OK. I accept that he bought and paid for my soul with his blood. You can say the word has a negative connotation, but I don't see it in that context. I give my life to Him to do with as he pleases. He feeds and shelters me. Now if I were a Roman slave, I get your point. That meaning of "slave" in NT only bolsters how much we should let God have control of our lives.

Your second paragraph is what I was trying to say regarding the OT. God says "IF" you are going to have slaves, treat them well, release them after 6 years w/o expecting any payment, let their wife go with, etc etc...

-rvb

 

[rvb]

We know this simply because he could read & write, and his only possession was a bible he wrote his story on as it happened.
We verified as much as we could, including his land claim in north/central Kentucky, which verified the date in his bible.

He had 3 wives, 13 surviving children, cleared 60 acres, cut & sold timer & lumber and farmed it with his family.
He also wrote for the local newsletter.
Not surprising he was an abolitionist, even in colonial times...

wow. what a family heirloom in that Bible.

 

[GTM]

as I said , there are people on the fringes. there always have been. we could also talk about Christian abolitionists.

And bringing history into it, we also have to understand that in old testament times, slavery didn't always have the same meaning as we think of it today. Often it was more like indentured servitude, sometimes even apprenticeship. This is why when the OT talks about how to treat slaves, it includes things like releasing them after a certain time has past, under what circumstances to extend keeping them around, etc. It was often a means of survival for the lowest classes. The Israelites had escaped Egypt, they new what true bondage felt like. Why would God help them escape only to say, now "do unto others as has been done to you?" Sounds good coming from Metallica, but I doubt that was God's guidance.

People mis-interpreting the Bible, or interpreting in a way that suits them is nothing new. I think that indicts the individuals, not the religion, nor God.

-rvb

But we also have to be honest when it comes to God commanding the Israelites to keep the captive virgin women for themselves and killing all of the others. It's brutal. It's in the Bible and we have to be intellectually honest about it.

I'm in the middle of a book "A More Christ-like God", which addresses some of these issues but certain passages of scripture can still be difficult to deal with.

 

[JeepHammer]

I'd be interested in hearing more about this "sect" and their preaching.

Real 'Old School' bunch about 20 miles down the road in a rundown, dying small town.
Mostly 3 or 4 extended families, that preach chopping off hands for shoplifting & excommunicate any woman that divorces her husband, stuff like that.
They have 'Revivals' with 'Serpent' handlers, preach death to gays, have expounded on abortion saying women that had abortions should be killed for murder, stuff like that.
They often home school, but what spooks me is 3 or 4 of the women are teachers in public schools...

They refer to other churches as 'Heretics' and 'Pagans'.
They have several outspoken white supremacists...

I have a cousin that married into one of the families, he's not welcome at the church anymore, and he/his family finally had to move two towns away.
They don't mess with him anymore since he became a police officer.

It's basically the magnet church for the local extremests, and I've had dealing with a few of them in my shop.
They don't want to pay, they want full auto firearms and I'm on their no fly list because I won't convert anything to full auto for any reason.
Their 'Toys' aren't worth me doing 20 years in a federal prison... It's a self preservation thing.
Keep in mind a senior State Trooper hangs out in, and sometimes works in my shop, and was present when they asked a couple times...

They are always buying firearms on the 'Private' market, I see them at the local gun shows, most of the legit dealers won't do business with them simply because they won't do private sales and risk their FFL.

When they want full auto, I wonder why they just don't fill out the paperwork and pay the tax, it's not like Indiana gives you problems with legal full auto if you pass the federal background check.

I have a good friend that bought land outside the town, tattoos, face metal, odd colored hair, but rock solid/down to earth people.
She's VERY smart, virtually single handed designed the shock absorbers that dominate the market now, several patents.
He's just a simple country boy, works HARD at a saw mill.

Church members talked to the land owner across the street, and installed three 15 foot crosses right smack in front of their home.
When the home owners asked the county officials who owned them, no one would admit owning them, the land owner claimed ignorance.
Crosses made of old, rusty well pipe, so she responded by painting the middle one (tallest) gloss white, and the other two HOT PINK!
(She borrowed my paint rig to do it!)
They leave her alone now, but I'm sure she is on 'The List' like I am and my cousin is.

It's a STRANGE bunch...
There kids won't talk to anyone, not even other kids in the neighborhoods... And most everyone I've talked to about them get nothing or hostility.

When an immigrant bought and re-opened a previously closed convince store, they passed rumors about him being a 'Muslim Terrorist' (He's Indian/Catholic) and spread a lie about him not serving any US Military service members (which made the county newspaper) ... and his kid is in the military and he couldn't be more proud...
... But he probably wishes he had bought a store someplace else.

It's small town religion/politics & an unhealthy dose of absolute entitlement, along with 'Issues' with everyone that's not them.
I'm sure someone in law enforcement is, or has, looked into them.
To me it's just a hateful bunch of ignorant, mean people hiding behind religion that I have as little to do with as possible.

 

[rvb]

But we also have to be honest when it comes to God commanding the Israelites to keep the captive virgin women for themselves and killing all of the others. It's brutal. It's in the Bible and we have to be intellectually honest about it.

I'm in the middle of a book "A More Christ-like God", which addresses some of these issues but certain passages of scripture can still be difficult to deal with.

yea, war is brutal. always has been.
It's only been the last few decades people have taken great offense to the death of non-combatants in war. We were carpet bombing entire cities as recent as ~75 years ago.
It's also another highlight of OT vs NT change that came with Jesus. God went from a "kill all those heathens" approach to a "love your neighbor and spread the word; Jesus has paid their price of death for them" approach.

-rvb

 

[JeepHammer]

wow. what a family heirloom in that Bible.

When my grandparents home burned (one heck of another story, the family that lived there was murdered, from Grandma to young children) long before I was a twinkle in anyone's eye, my grandmother dragged one kid out with one hand, and the Bible in the other.
The bible was the only personal possession they had after the fire...
Two adults, four boys of their own, three adopted boys, three of the kids didn't even have shoes and one didn't own a shirt, but the bible got saved.

Look up the "Wratten Family Murders" and that was the house they were living in when it burned.
Since it happened in 1893, before my grandparents were born, I'm sure I'm not the expert to consult but there is TONS been written about it.
I grew up walking/driving past a grave marker in a hog lot where they buried the convicted killer, and every tourist had to stop & ask about the Murders... Like I had some inside scoop on murders that happened in 1893 and it was the 1960s/70s...

We had an ancestor that rode with Quantrill's Raiders around the 'Civil' war.
My grandparents didn't talk about him, a historian actually clued me into it while researching the 'Civil' war.
I guess every family has 'One Of Those' somewhere if you go back far enough.
You don't get to pick your family...

 

[GTM]

yea, war is brutal. always has been.
It's only been the last few decades people have taken great offense to the death of non-combatants in war. We were carpet bombing entire cities as recent as ~75 years ago.
It's also another highlight of OT vs NT change that came with Jesus. God went from a "kill all those heathens" approach to a "love your neighbor and spread the word; Jesus has paid their price of death for them" approach.

-rvb

So God changed his mind or his strategy?

How do we handle the fact that scripture says that Jesus is the exact imprint of God (Hebrews 1:3), and that He only did what he saw the Father doing (John 5:19-20), and that in Jesus all the fullness of God was in bodily form (Col 2:9)? Did God's character change between NT and OT?