CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[ChristianPatriot]

Then the inducement to: Read Your Bible should come with a disclaimer, correct?

There are two main things you need to know when picking out a Bible: What text it is translated from and what style of translation was used (dynamic or formal equivalence).

 

[Alpo]

There are the things that actually occurred in the first half of the first century. There are those who observed what occurred. There are those who talked about their perceptions of what occurred. There are those who later wrote down what they thought occurred. And there are those who transcribed the texts over the centuries to yield what we have today...and those transcriptions weren't necessarily word for word due to a number of different factors.

Whatever text you rely upon contains most of the above paragraph.

 

[indiucky]

You may disagree, but I will not agree to disagree.

Agreed?

wait...

LOL....

 

[historian]

And jamil...Of course Paulf...Paulf lives the Word..I have only been around him once but his heart is on display and he is funny as **** lol...

.

Especially when it comes to "poor life choices...."

 

[ChristianPatriot]

There are the things that actually occurred in the first half of the first century. There are those who observed what occurred. There are those who talked about their perceptions of what occurred. There are those who later wrote down what they thought occurred. And there are those who transcribed the texts over the centuries to yield what we have today...and those transcriptions weren't necessarily word for word due to a number of different factors.

Whatever text you rely upon contains most of the above paragraph.

It was falsifiable at the time it was written There were hundreds, if not thousands of eyewitnesses still alive when it was finished.

 

[Alpo]

OK. And where are the lawyers and LEO's? Anyone want to talk about the reliability of eyewitness testimony? Or what really happened at Altamont?

I get it. I know that you believe and I'm certainly not going to sit here and say anything to change your view. I give you only my reasons why my ontologic search has not yielded the same results.

My quest in this direction started with the Book of Job. (I really don't want to expound on that). I say that only as reference.

Neither of us can prove or disprove our beliefs at this point. It is interesting to talk about the differences in a courteous manner. I may not have changed my views about Christianity after reading this thread, but it has helped me better understand some Christians.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

You act like historical preservation is impossible. Is there any mystery about how the pilgrims came to this continent? Nope. A bunch of people were there and wrote down what happened. It's not rocket science.

 

[Alpo]

Well, there is the written word as it exists today along with scholarly research over 2 millennia, archaeologic evidence, etc etc. At its simplest, you have a couple of Jewish sects comprised of mostly illiterate, somewhat superstitious people, witnessing events and passing that information to others. Where can we draw parallels?

Perhaps with Islam? Except Islam has done a better job of documenting things in real time.

And while it may not be rocket science, it is human behavior. If you could select 4 people at random to write about the pilgrims without reliance on any text or google, you'll get widely different stories. Youtube is full of these "man on the street" interrogations. You want a bet that the ship they came over on was named either the Nina, Pinta or Santa Maria?

I'll bet you couldn't do it with a high degree of accuracy and I don't know you at all. But I have observed humans observing and reporting events.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Well, there is the written word as it exists today along with scholarly research over 2 millennia, archaeologic evidence, etc etc. At its simplest, you have a couple of Jewish sects comprised of mostly illiterate, somewhat superstitious people, witnessing events and passing that information to others. Where can we draw parallels?

Perhaps with Islam? Except Islam has done a better job of documenting things in real time.

And while it may not be rocket science, it is human behavior. I bet you could select 4 people at random to write about the pilgrims without reliance on any text or google. I'll bet you couldn't do it with a high degree of accuracy and I don't know you at all. But I have observed humans observing and reporting events.

Christianity is absolutely nothing like Islam. The Koran was written by one man, by himself, over a couple decades. The Bible was written by 40 men over a millennia. Thousands of people witnessed supernatural events vs one man having a vision. Which one would you trust?

 

[rvb]

I keep looking in the Book for that 6000 year old Earth and I have not found it yet...

What would you say the Book does say?

It says :
“God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.”
**Genesis‬ *1:16, 19‬ *NIV‬‬

which makes me me think the 24 hr time scale we apply to a day may not be what a timeless God applies to the days of creation since the sun wasn't even around the first 3 days. Evening and morning were not sunset/sunrise events as we know them, at least not days 1-3.

It also says :
“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
**2 Peter‬ *3:8‬ *NIV‬‬

God is timeless, he is not constrained to operate by the number of spins or orbits of earth in space.

I struggle with being 100% confident in putting any # on the age of the earth or the universe. Either the science gives us a glimpse into how God made it over billions of years, or God put it in motion in its current state in 6 literal days just a few thousand years ago (in a way that looks billions of years old to our modern science)..It doesn't really matter. The POINT of the Genesis story is that it was made by God.

2c

-rvb

 

[Alpo]

Christianity is absolutely nothing like Islam. The Koran was written by one man, by himself, over a couple decades. The Bible was written by 40 men over a millennia. Thousands of people witnessed supernatural events vs one man having a vision. Which one would you trust?

How about: None of the Above?

Christ did not write one word for himself. As a matter of proofs, that is weaker. As a matter of fact, I'll stick with none of the above.

As a point of historical accuracy, there are many writings supporting the life of Mohammed, some at the time he was alive, some from Syria shortly after his death and many in the century or two afterwards. I'm not ascribing any validity to the views of Islam; only that it wasn't "one man in a cave".

If you disagree with that approach, you'll have to completely eliminate the writings of Paul, upon which much of Christianity rests.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

How about: None of the Above?

Christ did not write one word for himself. As a matter of proofs, that is weaker. As a matter of fact, I'll stick with none of the above.

So you don't trust a book that had thousands and thousands of witnesses to verify what events took place. Seems logical to me.

 

[Alpo]

No, I don't.

Have you ever read Cicero?

Do you believe the visions and events at Fatima?

 

[rvb]

There are the things that actually occurred in the first half of the first century. There are those who observed what occurred. There are those who talked about their perceptions of what occurred. There are those who later wrote down what they thought occurred. And there are those who transcribed the texts over the centuries to yield what we have today...and those transcriptions weren't necessarily word for word due to a number of different factors.

Whatever text you rely upon contains most of the above paragraph.

But they ALL say that God made the universe, including people. People accepted sin. Jesus came to Earth and died for all people, then rose from the dead! And ascended to heaven. And all who believe it will be saved from their sins. And he'll return someday. If we forget the scholarly analysis, is there any disagreement there in the texts? Between any denomination?

im still new enough in my walk I can't begin to have all the answers. I've learned a lot from folks here, too. But the basic premise a what's important, and it was witnessed and documented independently so many times it's hard to ignore...

-rvb

 

[Jludo]

Christianity is absolutely nothing like Islam. The Koran was written by one man, by himself, over a couple decades. The Bible was written by 40 men over a millennia. Thousands of people witnessed supernatural events vs one man having a vision. Which one would you trust?

What do you say to Moses writing the old testament then?

 

[Alpo]

But they ALL say that God made the universe, including people. People accepted sin. Jesus came to Earth and died for all people, then rose from the dead! And ascended to heaven. And all who believe it will be saved from their sins. And he'll return someday. If we forget the scholarly analysis, is there any disagreement there in the texts? Between any denomination?

im still new enough in my walk I can't begin to have all the answers. I've learned a lot from folks here, too. But the basic premise a what's important, and it was witnessed and documented independently so many times it's hard to ignore...

-rvb

Start with what we agree upon: God made the universe. It may be that I don't have the same concept of God that you do, but from my own readings and studies of physics, cosmology, philosophy, etc., there was an initiating force that set the initial conditions. What it was that did this, we don't really as yet know. And even if we were able to say "X occurred because of Y" , we'd still be left with: Well, what caused Y?

It may be that the universe always was. As humans, we can't get our arms around infinity, so it's impossible to describe and put into terms....at least for now. Saying "God did it", is OK with me.

The rest.....that is where we differ.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It says :
“God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.”
**Genesis‬ *1:16, 19‬ *NIV‬‬

which makes me me think the 24 hr time scale we apply to a day may not be what a timeless God applies to the days of creation since the sun wasn't even around the first 3 days. Evening and morning were not sunset/sunrise events as we know them, at least not days 1-3.

It also says :
“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
**2 Peter‬ *3:8‬ *NIV‬‬

God is timeless, he is not constrained to operate by the number of spins or orbits of earth in space.

I struggle with being 100% confident in putting any # on the age of the earth or the universe. Either the science gives us a glimpse into how God made it over billions of years, or God put it in motion in its current state in 6 literal days just a few thousand years ago (in a way that looks billions of years old to our modern science)..It doesn't really matter. The POINT of the Genesis story is that it was made by God.

2c

-rvb

I'm not dogmatic on this issue. A God that can create an entire universe is certainly capable of producing a world that looks umpteen billion years old in the blink of an eye. Maybe someday, we'll all find out and I bet it'll be glorious.

 

[foszoe]

No, I don't think by nature of being born we're guilty and condemned to hell. I don't think a group of kids deserve to be killed because of the family they were born into. Call me crazy.

You are not crazy and you are not wrong

 

[ChristianPatriot]

What do you say to Moses writing the old testament then?

He didn't write the Old Testament. He wrote the Pentateuch (yeah I know some scholars disagree about that)

 

[foszoe]

Prior to 313 there was no universal church the ana-baptists were just believers before they were declared heretics by the roman church.

The reformation was a protest against the roman church, disputing the power of the pope. It broke up Catholicism into factions, Lutheran (doctrinally, the just shall live by faith) Presbyterian, Anglican ('enry the 8th) Methodist the offspring of Anglicanism.

The ana-baptists (rebaptizers) an aspersion cast upon them by infant baptizers, because they Baptized only when a child or adult professed faith in Christ, were drowned, burned, made to swallow molten lead, had their children slain in front of them to get them to recant Christ and accept the supremacy of the "Church".

Ana-baptist groups, eventually became known as Mennonites or Baptists. They were never a part of the universal church, a.

This really depends on how you Define universal church. I would define it as there has been and always will be from the time of Pentecost a group of believers who have taught the same faith. I believe that both the Bible and history support this definition for even in the Bible there were already orthodox and heterodox believers.

What Biblical and historical texts support the belief that the anabaptist movement had its Origins biblically and continually through history?