CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

I say I can shock myself, put together a simple radio or repair a circuit yet God has yet to make his presence known to me. He may be self evident to you but not reveal himself to others, electricity is there regardless.

If I read an electronics manual and it said slaughtering women and children was ok in certain circumstances, I wouldn't devote my life to studying it further. My sense of morality is apparently independent of and contradictory to the Bible.

Your morality developed in a Time where the culture is very different that is we are not in a tribal Society Where one Tribe slaughters another in order to survive. It is anachronistic to project back into 6000 BC our culture and Society of law.

 

[gregr]

How about: None of the Above?

Christ did not write one word for himself. As a matter of proofs, that is weaker. As a matter of fact, I'll stick with none of the above.

As a point of historical accuracy, there are many writings supporting the life of Mohammed, some at the time he was alive, some from Syria shortly after his death and many in the century or two afterwards. I'm not ascribing any validity to the views of Islam; only that it wasn't "one man in a cave".

If you disagree with that approach, you'll have to completely eliminate the writings of Paul, upon which much of Christianity rests.

Certainly Christ wrote ALL of that wonderful book. Since Christ makes up one third of the Trinity, and the Scriptures were written by men, yes, but men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. islam is Satan`s religion, period. Christ taught to love not only your neighbor, but your enemy as well. islam teaches to murder the infidels wherever they`re found, quite the contrast. Nevermind that Christs` tomb is the only tomb that`s empty of all the alleged gods that other religions purport. The Bible IS Gods` Holy Word, infallible, recorded by men filled with His Holy Spirit. The Bible IS truth, the Bible IS infallible, and Jesus Christ IS the only way to the Father. It really IS this simple.

 

[foszoe]

Original sin is a whole other can of warms though I have always found it interesting that pursuit of knowledge was the original sin, the one command God had was not to become knowledgeable.

Would you rather find out about electricity by getting shocked all the time or being taught its usefulness and properties?

Think of Adam and Eve an infantse mentally As in they didn't know everything and they needed to learn. When we go to college we don't take our senior classes first we start out with more basic concepts that we can understand. This was the environment into which God placed man company with only one command a command to fast. Everything else in the garden was permissible to eat. In modern-day terms clean your plate before you get dessert

 

[gregr]

Men started corrupting scripture within decades of it being finished. It's not surprising that there are as many "versions" as there are today.

I guess I don`t know of any "versions" of the Bible. There is the King James, then the NIV and the like, where people tried to put Scripture into a more era friendly speak. But I only know of one "version" of Holy Scripture, and God preserves His Word. That King James Bible you are blessed to be able to hold in your hands if you so chose, has the power of life in it.

 

[Alpo]

Certainly Christ wrote ALL of that wonderful book. Since Christ makes up one third of the Trinity, and the Scriptures were written by men, yes, but men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. islam is Satan`s religion, period. Christ taught to love not only your neighbor, but your enemy as well. islam teaches to murder the infidels wherever they`re found, quite the contrast. Nevermind that Christs` tomb is the only tomb that`s empty of all the alleged gods that other religions purport. The Bible IS Gods` Holy Word, infallible, recorded by men filled with His Holy Spirit. The Bible IS truth, the Bible IS infallible, and Jesus Christ IS the only way to the Father. It really IS this simple.

I'm sorry, but that is sect propaganda.

I come from a large Roman Catholic family. My favorite brother went through his personal crisis and epiphany a decade or so ago. As a result, he became a 7th Day Adventist. The pope is now the anti-christ, we can't talk to him on Saturday and he won't eat bbq ribs any more.

I accept the possibility that there are different realities and perhaps a multi-verse. My brother may be 100% correct in his view...in some other reality. That, in a way, is how I view what you profess.

 

[gregr]

No, I don't.

Have you ever read Cicero?

Do you believe the visions and events at Fatima?

Look at the fruits...ANYTHING that takes the focus off Christ Jesus is of Satan.

 

[Alpo]

But you didn't answer any of the questions.

Do you believe in the visions and events at Fatima?

 

[JettaKnight]

I'll double down on my previous recommendation.

 

[gregr]

I'm sorry, but that is sect propaganda.

I come from a large Roman Catholic family. My favorite brother went through his personal crisis and epiphany a decade or so ago. As a result, he became a 7th Day Adventist. The pope is now the anti-christ, we can't talk to him on Saturday and he won't eat bbq ribs any more.

I accept the possibility that there are different realities and perhaps a multi-verse. My brother may be 100% correct in his view...in some other reality. That, in a way, is how I view what you profess.

Sadly, there is not "your" truth, or "my" truth, there is only the truth that Jesus preached and taught. We don`t have the luxury of each of us having things our own way, and no, the Truth of Jesus Christ is hardly sect propaganda. You`re free to deny Christ, you`re free to harden your heart to Him and His Word. You`re even free to commit the unpardonable sin, that is, refusing to accept Christ as Savior. Just remember that one day, even knee will bow, and every tongue WILL confess Jesus as Lord.

Good luck to you.

 

[gregr]

But you didn't answer any of the questions.

Do you believe in the visions and events at Fatima?

Those things are of Satan.

 

[Alpo]

So, you reject the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people on a single day in the 20th century, yet you ask me to rely upon the eyewitness testimony of a group of people 2000 years prior?

Personally, I see some similarity and perhaps for the same reasons. You have 1.2 billion people who likely believe Fatima was a real event. I know a close friend who believes it central to her life.

But, I'm afraid, it isn't what I was looking for.

 

[T.Lex]

Have you ever read Cicero?

Do you believe the visions and events at Fatima?

I'll jump back in on this invitation.

I've read Cicero. Is there any doubt that he was the author of what is attributed to him? (Come to think of it, I'm not aware of any, but maybe there is....)

I believe the people that witnessed the visions and events at Fatima believe that they witnessed the events of Fatima.

I know that sounds corny, but the Trinity can (and does) reveal Himself to people on their own terms. The rest of us aren't required to understand.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

So, you reject the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people on a single day in the 20th century, yet you ask me to rely upon the eyewitness testimony of a group of people 2000 years prior?

Personally, I see some similarity and perhaps for the same reasons. You have 1.2 billion people who likely believe Fatima was a real event. I know a close friend who believes it central to her life.

But, I'm afraid, it isn't what I was looking for.

In the year 1917, in a mountainous region at the center of Portugal, the Mother of God appeared six times to three young children.

Yeah that's a reaonsable comparison

 

[gregr]

So, you reject the eyewitness testimony of thousands of people on a single day in the 20th century, yet you ask me to rely upon the eyewitness testimony of a group of people 2000 years prior?

Personally, I see some similarity and perhaps for the same reasons. You have 1.2 billion people who likely believe Fatima was a real event. I know a close friend who believes it central to her life.

But, I'm afraid, it isn't what I was looking for.

I never said I doubted WHAT your eyewitnesses saw. What I said was, it isn`t from God. I`m sorry your friend makes that "central" in her life, it is of Satan, because Mary is dead. Although the mother of Jesus, my Bible tells me that only Jesus Christ is my intercessor to the Father. Satan conjures up a counterfeit religion to take glory and praise away from God the Father, God the Son, and Gods` Holy Spirit. I don`t make the rules, I only read them in the Holy Bible. There is much demonic activity in the world. Jesus cast out demons, and we are admonished that we fight a spiritual war and not of flesh and blood. Satan wants your heart so he can have your soul. It is pride that causes a man to reject the Truth of the Lord, and Satan plays upon that pride. Humble yourself before the Lord and see what He has to say to you.

 

[Alpo]

The interesting aspect of Cicero, as you likely know, is that he wrote of and developed a great many ideas we still utilize to this day. But, he was also self-serving. Some of his "perceptions" of events have been called into question.

So, here is one of the greatest men of all time, writing about law and structure and philosophy in the greatest civilization of the time, and we have cause to believe that some of the writings shaded the truth.

 

[Alpo]

I never said I doubted WHAT your eyewitnesses saw. What I said was, it isn`t from God. I`m sorry your friend makes that "central" in her life, it is of Satan, because Mary is dead. Although the mother of Jesus, my Bible tells me that only Jesus Christ is my intercessor to the Father. Satan conjures up a counterfeit religion to take glory and praise away from God the Father, God the Son, and Gods` Holy Spirit. I don`t make the rules, I only read them in the Holy Bible. There is much demonic activity in the world. Jesus cast out demons, and we are admonished that we fight a spiritual war and not of flesh and blood. Satan wants your heart so he can have your soul. It is pride that causes a man to reject the Truth of the Lord, and Satan plays upon that pride. Humble yourself before the Lord and see what He has to say to you.

Yeah. I've got it. I've read it.

I don't buy it, but that's just me.

 

[foszoe]

Y'all jump between: we ignore the OT, then quoting it.

The problem with "truth" in this context is that the writings were changed over some initial period to suit the times and audience (Mark 16:9 et seq, for example). Paul never physically saw Jesus, despite some saying his vision was "real".

Paul's vision seems little different than Mohammed's. Sorry for the heresy.

The Bible is a salvation history. Attempts to read it with a Koranic understanding are mistaken.

Ancient commentators did not struggle with textual variance.

I don't know what aspects in the visions are in question but they seem vastly different to me.

 

[foszoe]

There's always been a preserved, pure word. A manuscript being older does not mean it's more accurate, which is the case in the Mark passage argument.

How are you defining always? Christianity existed before the Bible.

 

[foszoe]

Well, there is the written word as it exists today along with scholarly research over 2 millennia, archaeologic evidence, etc etc. At its simplest, you have a couple of Jewish sects comprised of mostly illiterate, somewhat superstitious people, witnessing events and passing that information to others. Where can we draw parallels?

Perhaps with Islam? Except Islam has done a better job of documenting things in real time.
.

cultural history being passed orally vs written can be just as if not more accurate. Illiteracy does not equate to inaccuracy.

 

[foszoe]

How about: None of the Above?

Christ did not write one word for himself. As a matter of proofs, that is weaker. As a matter of fact, I'll stick with none of the above.

As a point of historical accuracy, there are many writings supporting the life of Mohammed, some at the time he was alive, some from Syria shortly after his death and many in the century or two afterwards. I'm not ascribing any validity to the views of Islam; only that it wasn't "one man in a cave".

If you disagree with that approach, you'll have to completely eliminate the writings of Paul, upon which much of Christianity rests.

Are you comparing the Bible to the Koran or the life of Jesus documentation with the life of Mohammed? The latter would be the gospels not Paul.

Furthermore, Christianity is not based on a book as is the Muslim faith, it is based on a person, Jesus. For the Christian, Truth is a person not a book.

A proper reading of the Bible starts with the gospels. The OT and the Epistles must all be understood through the lens of the Gospel.