CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[ATM]

Original sin is a whole other can of warms though I have always found it interesting that pursuit of knowledge was the original sin, the one command God had was not to become knowledgeable.

Deception.

 

[ATM]

Again, the Bible is clear on all these things. You don't want to believe it because you disagree with it. That's fine. Unfortunately, you don't make the rules. I feel sorry for you, but I've presented the gospel. It's 100% up to you to accept it or reject it. Free will and all that.

Choices.

Consequences.

Excellent.

 

[ATM]

God's little winks permeate science and philosophy...

It has long been my favorite emoticon.

 

[ATM]

Human nature never changes

That sounds an awful lot like an absolute truth.

 

[ATM]

...I can't comprehend his.

This is the beginning of wisdom. It is worth a lifetime of pursuit.

 

[gregr]

What is heretical about Olsteen?

I listened to a few of his 'sermons' and was surprised at how little he bible talks people. Most of what he says seems to be anecdotes from his experiences (or made up), and he marginally relates them back to the Bible.

He seems to be financially successful though, which is the point of it all.

No, the "point of it all", is to lead people out of their deprivation, and into a saving faith in Jesus Christ. And the issue with Olsteen, and all those like him, are, they preach a "wealth, health, and prosperity" gospel, and that`s a lie of Satan. God is NOT an ATM, or a Genie, on call, waiting to appease us and fulfill our lists of wants. God is our Holy Father, our provider, and our protector, but we are His servants, and His children, and we are to be obedient to Him, and faithful. Where Olsteen claims that God "wants" you to have the BMW, MY Bible says that Jesus told me to pick up my cross and follow him.
There`s a whole bunch of "religion" a guy can find out in this big world, but only the true saving Gospel of Jesus Christ saves us from our sin, and an eternity of damnation.

 

[ATM]

A really good read is 'letters from earth' by Mark Twain. Reminds me of a Jim Jefferies joke, we never get to hear the devils side of the story.

We live in the devil's side of every story. We naturally prefer it.

 

[ATM]

Like I said, agree to disagree.

I do not agree to disagree. Agreement is a voluntary act of two or more parties.

Your own disagreement is all you control.

 

[ATM]

Agree to disagree is a a polite way to avoid condescendingly telling you you're wrong in absolute terms.

Sometimes, sacrificing your message in the name of politeness is an error.

 

[ATM]

Experience is an interesting word to use. God certainly works with people differently. Some have a "road to Damascus" experience. Others have a slow dawning of faith like C.S. Lewis. Many hear the Gospel and receive it. But I would not discount the witness of believers as God's effort to reach you personally.

Yep. I wouldn't discount any means an infinite God may have at His disposal to reach individuals.

Individuals, unlike human nature, are ...unique.

 

[Jludo]

No, absolutely not. In fact, it is part of the larger context of that passage from Romans I reference earlier. Psalms 19 tells us that the "Heavens declare the glory of God."

Sorry, that was scripture again. There are actually accounts of missionaries showing up to a previously unreached people to find them already worshipping Christ. All the missionary really had to do was fill in the blanks for those who had never had access to a Bible or a teacher before.

Woah, this feels more like a 'believe what you want to believe' thing, I'm skeptical that, in 43 AD, folks on the other side of the planet suddenly came to know Christ.

 

[ATM]

What I enjoy about Indi's responses is that he comes at it from an outside place, I'm not a fan of using scripture to prove scripture. Feels like Ken Ham telling folks the earth is 6000 years old because the bible says so.

Exactly. Approach it from the hypothetical perspective that the bible says so simply because the earth is 6000 years old and most are deceived.

It's an interesting "scientific" exercise for the mind to explore.

 

[gregr]

No, I don't think by nature of being born we're guilty and condemned to hell. I don't think a group of kids deserve to be killed because of the family they were born into. Call me crazy.

Gods` Holy Word tells us clearly that when sin entered into the Garden via the serpent, that mankind suffered a fall. All of the descendants of Adam then were cursed and born with a sin nature, and destined to be separated from God forever, unless they offered sacrifices unto the Lord that were pleasing to Him. God gave us the law to show us how incapable we are in and of ourselves in pleasing Him, and Jesus came, the Lamb of God, to pay the penalty for all sin, and sooth the wrath of God, for as many as would believe upon Him.
It`s clearly your choice, you can believe the Holy Word of God, or, you can ignore His teachings, and accept the whisperings of Satan, but we are indeed born as depraved sinners, in desperate need of a savior and we are indeed condemned to hell unless we come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ, period. If this were not so, then Christ died for no obvious reason on the cross, but Jesus Christ was the wonderful Lamb of God, our blessed redeemer. These are the truths of eternity, whether anyone accepts them, and embraces them or not.

 

[ATM]

Woah, this feels more like a 'believe what you want to believe' thing, I'm skeptical that, in 43 AD, folks on the other side of the planet suddenly came to know Christ.

Because they didn't know His name and hadn't received many pieces of the grand puzzle being unfolded?

 

[ATM]

I do not blame them....I would rather debate with you, paulf, or jamil than sit around and nod my head up and down with other believers in agreement..I am called to engage and engage I will....It has nothing to do with either side sharing the same experience or one having a "come to Jesus" moment and the other not having that...Experience has nothing to do with the moral code written within us....To me debating morality with anyone is futile because it's something written on all of our hearts...I can't debate morality with you because I believe we would both agree...We may disagree where that morality comes from but I do believe you and I have the same moral code of ethics and that it is not learned but in our code...

We should talk.

 

[Jludo]

Gods` Holy Word tells us clearly that when sin entered into the Garden via the serpent, that mankind suffered a fall. All of the descendants of Adam then were cursed and born with a sin nature, and destined to be separated from God forever, unless they offered sacrifices unto the Lord that were pleasing to Him. God gave us the law to show us how incapable we are in and of ourselves in pleasing Him, and Jesus came, the Lamb of God, to pay the penalty for all sin, and sooth the wrath of God, for as many as would believe upon Him.
It`s clearly your choice, you can believe the Holy Word of God, or, you can ignore His teachings, and accept the whisperings of Satan, but we are indeed born as depraved sinners, in desperate need of a savior and we are indeed condemned to hell unless we come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ, period. If this were not so, then Christ died for no obvious reason on the cross, but Jesus Christ was the wonderful Lamb of God, our blessed redeemer. These are the truths of eternity, whether anyone accepts them, and embraces them or not.

This. This is absolutely the way not to convince me of anything. When I was growing up I'd ask my mom questions I had about Christianity and you know what she'd tell me? Ignore those, those are just Satan whispering in your ear. There's no quicker way to raise a skeptic.

This is simply using the bible to prove the bible. If my default state is skeptical, using the thing i'm skeptical of as proof isn't going to work.

 

[ATM]

Good point. You hear of some testimonies where people will state a vision or some sort of supernatural event brought them to the Truth. But for many, and this was true in my case, I had to honestly open up and be willing to accept "it". Going through life, waiting for that sign from heaven will most likely cause one to "miss out". No problem with questioning, it's how we improve our knowledge. But i think it's the goal of the questioning that's important.

That sounds very familiar...

...Always question - the truth doesn't mind, indeed, it demands it...

 

[ATM]

This. This is absolutely the way not to convince me of anything. When I was growing up I'd ask my mom questions I had about Christianity and you know what she'd tell me? Ignore those, those are just Satan whispering in your ear. There's no quicker way to raise a skeptic.

This is simply using the bible to prove the bible. If my default state is skeptical, using the thing i'm skeptical of as proof isn't going to work.

ATM knows The Way.

Sorry, your mom didn't do you any favors, but your mom will answer for her choices and you will answer for your own.

There will be none other than yourself to blame for your choices.

 

[gregr]

This. This is absolutely the way not to convince me of anything. When I was growing up I'd ask my mom questions I had about Christianity and you know what she'd tell me? Ignore those, those are just Satan whispering in your ear. There's no quicker way to raise a skeptic.

This is simply using the bible to prove the bible. If my default state is skeptical, using the thing i'm skeptical of as proof isn't going to work.

Nothing is going to convince you anyway, short of the Holy Spirit, but refusing to use the truth as the truth is impossible. Scripture taken in it`s proper context is the surest way to prove Scripture, and I will not, I cannot do things any differently. You are asking the impossible. In one paragraph, you`ve demanded that Scripture not be used to verify Scripture, and that we ignore, or deny the existence of Satan. Neither of these is possible. Satan is real, he is alive, and he is the enemy of your soul. He seeks to deceive you, and to cause you to miss the wonderful future the Lord has for you, if only you come to true repentance. The Bible IS the Holy Word of God, that burns like a white-hot light, to point out our sin and depravity. It is fact, it is truth, and it IS a love letter from our Creator to us, His creation.
None of us here can bring you to salvation, only the Holy Spirit can do that. But, the small part we can play, is to plant the seeds of truth in you, and we can only do that by sharing the truth with you, not your version of truth, but Gods` Word, in it`s proper context. If we tell you anything but truth, we`re only assisting you in your journey to hell. Because you`re here at all discussing this, it appears that you`re seeking truth, but you have to be open to it. If telling you the truth causes you to be, in your words, a skeptic, well, that`s your own choosing. We are obligated to tell you the truth, regardless of what you do with that truth.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That sounds very familiar...

I think I read it in some Jefferson quote.