CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[ChristianPatriot]

Because Satan told Eve that God was lying to them and if they ate it they would actually become like God.

Which is also why Lucifer and his fallen angels were kicked out of heaven. He wanted to be like God.

 

[Woobie]

Which is also why Lucifer and his fallen angels were kicked out of heaven. He wanted to be like God.

And what was the reason for building the Tower of Babel? Yep.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

And what was the reason for building the Tower of Babel? Yep.

Human nature never changes

 

[Jludo]

A French Philosopher in the 18th century posed the question..."Look...I got this button here...And if you push it all of your desires will be fulfilled, love, fortune, intellect etc will be given to you...Wealth and power beyond your wildest dreams...But here is the deal...If you push that button thousands of miles away in China a peasant will be struck dead...Who among us would push that button? Who among us would want that button in wide circulation? But more importantly...What compels us NOT to push the button?

The word of God is written on the hearts of man....You don't need to get your morality from religion...God wrote it on your heart...

Later on the great writer Richard Matheson used that French philosophers question to write an episode of the Twilight Zone and recently a film was made posing the same question....

In the natural world we can pose a similar question.....

What compels the electron to stay in orbit around the atom?????

God's little winks permeate science and philosophy...

IMHO of course....

I could believe that but in that case God has put a different morality on my heart than he wrote down in his book, or we don't share senses of morality and I can't comprehend his.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

I could believe that but in that case God has put a different morality on my heart than he wrote down in his book, or we don't share senses of morality and I can't comprehend his.

Yes the slaughter of innocent is wrong. They weren't innocent. None of us are.

 

[Jludo]

Which is also why Lucifer and his fallen angels were kicked out of heaven. He wanted to be like God.

A really good read is 'letters from earth' by Mark Twain. Reminds me of a Jim Jefferies joke, we never get to hear the devils side of the story.

 

[Jludo]

Yes the slaughter of innocent is wrong. They weren't innocent. None of us are.

Like I said, agree to disagree.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Like I said, agree to disagree.

You agree to disagree on things like Brady vs Manning or how to grill chicken. Nobody says agree to disagree on 1+1=2. Facts matter.

 

[indiucky]

I could believe that but in that case God has put a different morality on my heart than he wrote down in his book, or we don't share senses of morality and I can't comprehend his.

I believe you comprehend His sense way more than you realize....There is a reason Lawrence Krauss is not one of the "four horsemen" of the Atheist movement and why Richard Dawkins will not debate William Lane Craig....It's very hard to argue that morality is not written on our hearts....Sam Harris and Hitch can make a decent go of it (by NOT going there if they can avoid it) but Dawkins and Krauss try and end up stuttering like fools when they can't make a scientific moral case against Nazi experiments or just killing someone and taking what they have....

At the end of it they both say it's wrong but can not make a compelling reason why...There is nothing in evolution that explains this moral code written on our hearts that rebels against the doctrine of Alleister Crowley so widely adopted in the 1960's..."If it feels good do it" or as Crowley originally put it, "Do what thou Wilt."

 

[Jludo]

You agree to disagree on things like Brady vs Manning or how to grill chicken. Nobody says agree to disagree on 1+1=2. Facts matter.

Agree to disagree is a a polite way to avoid condescendingly telling you you're wrong in absolute terms.

 

[Woobie]

I believe you comprehend His sense way more than you realize....There is a reason Lawrence Krauss is not one of the "four horsemen" of the Atheist movement and why Richard Dawkins will not debate William Lane Craig....It's very hard to argue that morality is not written on our hearts....Sam Harris and Hitch can make a decent go of it (by NOT going there if they can avoid it) but Dawkins and Krauss try and end up stuttering like fools when they can't make a scientific moral case against Nazi experiments or just killing someone and taking what they have....

At the end of it they both say it's wrong but can not make a compelling reason why...There is nothing in evolution that explains this moral code written on our hearts that rebels against the doctrine of Alleister Crowley so widely adopted in the 1960's..."If it feels good do it" or as Crowley originally put it, "Do what thou Wilt."

To your point about ingrained morality:

Ecclesiastes 3:11 says that God has put the world (the Hebrew world is a broad term that also encompasses the idea of eternity) in their hearts.

Then there is this from Romans:

Romans 1:20-21
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. …

 

[Jludo]

I believe you comprehend His sense way more than you realize....There is a reason Lawrence Krauss is not one of the "four horsemen" of the Atheist movement and why Richard Dawkins will not debate William Lane Craig....It's very hard to argue that morality is not written on our hearts....Sam Harris and Hitch can make a decent go of it (by NOT going there if they can avoid it) but Dawkins and Krauss try and end up stuttering like fools when they can't make a scientific moral case against Nazi experiments or just killing someone and taking what they have....

At the end of it they both say it's wrong but can not make a compelling reason why...There is nothing in evolution that explains this moral code written on our hearts that rebels against the doctrine of Alleister Crowley so widely adopted in the 1960's..."If it feels good do it" or as Crowley originally put it, "Do what thou Wilt."

They are making their arguments in the environment they find themselves. If someone has never had the divine come to Jesus epiphany they can't be blamed for trying to make sense with all the tools they have. If you've been given the gift of some divine insight others haven't been given or haven't seen then I don't see where a conversation with a Sam Harris type will benefit anyone. Until this magical (for lack of a better term) moment in someones life isn't debating morality futile as both sides aren't sharing the in the same experience?

 

[Woobie]

Experience is an interesting word to use. God certainly works with people differently. Some have a "road to Damascus" experience. Others have a slow dawning of faith like C.S. Lewis. Many hear the Gospel and receive it. But I would not discount the witness of believers as God's effort to reach you personally.

 

[Jludo]

To your point about ingrained morality:

Ecclesiastes 3:11 says that God has put the world (the Hebrew world is a broad term that also encompasses the idea of eternity) in their hearts.

Then there is this from Romans:

Romans 1:20-21
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. …

What I enjoy about Indi's responses is that he comes at it from an outside place, I'm not a fan of using scripture to prove scripture. Feels like Ken Ham telling folks the earth is 6000 years old because the bible says so.

 

[Woobie]

What I enjoy about Indi's responses is that he comes at it from an outside place, I'm not a fan of using scripture to prove scripture. Feels like Ken Ham telling folks the earth is 6000 years old because the bible says so.

I can respect and sympathize with that attitude. I guess I was more pointing out that where he has arrived is a place where scripture has always stood.

 

[indiucky]

They are making their arguments in the environment they find themselves. If someone has never had the divine come to Jesus epiphany they can't be blamed for trying to make sense with all the tools they have. If you've been given the gift of some divine insight others haven't been given or haven't seen then I don't see where a conversation with a Sam Harris type will benefit anyone. Until this magical (for lack of a better term) moment in someones life isn't debating morality futile as both sides aren't sharing the in the same experience?

I do not blame them....I would rather debate with you, paulf, or jamil than sit around and nod my head up and down with other believers in agreement..I am called to engage and engage I will....It has nothing to do with either side sharing the same experience or one having a "come to Jesus" moment and the other not having that...Experience has nothing to do with the moral code written within us....To me debating morality with anyone is futile because it's something written on all of our hearts...I can't debate morality with you because I believe we would both agree...We may disagree where that morality comes from but I do believe you and I have the same moral code of ethics and that it is not learned but in our code...

 

[Jludo]

Experience is an interesting word to use. God certainly works with people differently. Some have a "road to Damascus" experience. Others have a slow dawning of faith like C.S. Lewis. Many hear the Gospel and receive it. But I would not discount the witness of believers as God's effort to reach you personally.

The issue I take with that approach is that I'm not of the nationalistic vein. I think I could've been born anywhere and at any time, could easily have existed somewhere no believer could reach me personally, that wouldn't discount Gods existence would it?

 

[Woobie]

The issue I take with that approach is that I'm not of the nationalistic vein. I think I could've been born anywhere and at any time, could easily have existed somewhere no believer could reach me personally, that wouldn't discount Gods existence would it?

No, absolutely not. In fact, it is part of the larger context of that passage from Romans I reference earlier. Psalms 19 tells us that the "Heavens declare the glory of God."

Sorry, that was scripture again. There are actually accounts of missionaries showing up to a previously unreached people to find them already worshipping Christ. All the missionary really had to do was fill in the blanks for those who had never had access to a Bible or a teacher before.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Experience is an interesting word to use. God certainly works with people differently. Some have a "road to Damascus" experience. Others have a slow dawning of faith like C.S. Lewis. Many hear the Gospel and receive it. But I would not discount the witness of believers as God's effort to reach you personally.

Good point. You hear of some testimonies where people will state a vision or some sort of supernatural event brought them to the Truth. But for many, and this was true in my case, I had to honestly open up and be willing to accept "it". Going through life, waiting for that sign from heaven will most likely cause one to "miss out". No problem with questioning, it's how we improve our knowledge. But i think it's the goal of the questioning that's important.

 

[ATM]

God is life. God is not death. Sin brings death and judgement. Man had ONE commandment to follow and we failed. EVERYTHING AFTER THAT IS MAN'S FAULT. God designed earth to be a utopia and we screwed it all up. I think where you're off in your thinking is how "good" man is. Like somehow we deserve what life we have. Biblically, we deserve an eternity in hell. ANYTHING that is given to us above that is by the grace of God alone. All humanity deserves a Biblical genocide. The Bible says even our righteousness is as filthy rags. Even the good things we do are comparable to the rags that lepers would use to wipe the puss from their sores. BUT Amen Praise Jesus Hallelujah, God is immeasurably gracious and merciful. He sent His Son to die on a cross for us wicked people. He didn't do that because we were somehow worthy of it. He did it because He loves us. We are simultaneously the scum of the universe and the crown jewel of His creation.

Truth.