CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[historian]

Before or after he confesses his sins?

Now you are starting to join our friend Martin....

For a very public display like that, sure. Alas, I'm not sure I've ever seen something that obvious. And that's really the problem - real life tends to be more nuanced than hypotheticals.

Wouldn't voting and speaking to expand abortion be obvious. No matter how you try and nuance it, if you say abortion should be expanded, that is, by it's very nature, a belief.

But now you have me curious - how would something like that be handled among the Protestant affiliations? Does a pastor have the inherent authority to deny the eucharist? Or does the offender just get uninvited to the pitch-in? Or perhaps worse, forced to take home all the left-overs?

We handle it differently. First a reminder, communion is symbolic (no cannibalism here) so it isn't eating Jesus (except for Lutherans, they are, as always, a weird middle ground). The table gets fenced every week with a disclaimer that it is only for believers, and that it is pointless if you do not believe. So the unbeliever is already disclaimed. The pastor does retain the right of refusal, however, that can vary as most "pass the plate" whereas, at our church you have to go up to take.

As for leftovers, at our church in Muncie, that bread was good, so we frequently vied to grab some leftovers after the service. Our pastor's wife made a really sweet bread. It was killer. If we didn't get it, his kids would usually eat it at home. Remember, it is just bread.

 

[rvb]

The idea of refusing to give someone communion is interesting.......
Jesus commanded the action in remembrance of him. Seems especially important if you think someone is straying from the path that they have that reminder. To deny them accomplishes what?? Other than pointing out the spec in their eye?

-rvb

 

[historian]

The idea of refusing to give someone communion is interesting.......
Jesus commanded the action in remembrance of him. Seems especially important if you think someone is straying from the path that they have that reminder. To deny them accomplishes what?? Other than pointing out the spec in their eye?

-rvb

Indeed. However, if one is living in open, persistent sin, refusing to repent, then one is most likely not saved.

 

[T.Lex]

Now you are starting to join our friend Martin....

Wouldn't voting and speaking to expand abortion be obvious. No matter how you try and nuance it, if you say abortion should be expanded, that is, by it's very nature, a belief.

We handle it differently. First a reminder, communion is symbolic (no cannibalism here) so it isn't eating Jesus (except for Lutherans, they are, as always, a weird middle ground). The table gets fenced every week with a disclaimer that it is only for believers, and that it is pointless if you do not believe. So the unbeliever is already disclaimed. The pastor does retain the right of refusal, however, that can vary as most "pass the plate" whereas, at our church you have to go up to take.

As for leftovers, at our church in Muncie, that bread was good, so we frequently vied to grab some leftovers after the service. Our pastor's wife made a really sweet bread. It was killer. If we didn't get it, his kids would usually eat it at home. Remember, it is just bread.

Ah, right - the symbolic thing resolves some of the problem. It becomes more a matter of personal conscience, right?

The idea of refusing to give someone communion is interesting.......
Jesus commanded the action in remembrance of him. Seems especially important if you think someone is straying from the path that they have that reminder. To deny them accomplishes what?? Other than pointing out the spec in their eye?

Yeah, this is one of those things that I can see both sides. I am not a eucharistic minister, so I'm not really faced with that issue.

After all, I have enough issues with my own examination of conscience for the eucharist, I don't have the time or energy to figure out someone else's.

 

[rvb]

Indeed. However, if one is living in open, persistent sin, refusing to repent, then one is most likely not saved.

The Bible says "Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup." (1 Cor 11:28) It doesn't say I am to examine everyone else.

Frankly I've never been a fan of the "rule" that people have to be baptized before they partake in communion. Rather I would hope that someone who is open to accepting Christ would experience the gravity of why we do it and perhaps that would lead to a baptism. It's one of those things we require only because it happened in that order in Acts 2. But then I'm going through my own struggles with "requirements" of/for churches at the moment...

-rvb

 

[historian]

The Bible says "Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup." (1 Cor 11:28) It doesn't say I am to examine everyone else.

Frankly I've never been a fan of the "rule" that people have to be baptized before they partake in communion. Rather I would hope that someone who is open to accepting Christ would experience the gravity of why we do it and perhaps that would lead to a baptism. It's one of those things we require only because it happened in that order in Acts 2. But then I'm going through my own struggles with "requirements" of/for churches at the moment...

-rvb

I would argue that the examine oneself is a parenthetical, not about sin but about your relation to the church body (in particular your church body). Are you acting as a member of the body of Christ? Good, you may partake. If you are hurting another in the body of Christ than that would be a no.

 

[HoughMade]

The idea of refusing to give someone communion is interesting.......
Jesus commanded the action in remembrance of him. Seems especially important if you think someone is straying from the path that they have that reminder. To deny them accomplishes what?? Other than pointing out the spec in their eye?

-rvb

Denying Communion is actually helping him out.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

I Corinthians 11:27-30.

As to the whole speck thing, context is everything. That is actually what we are supposed to do, especially church leadership:

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7:3-5

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard!...

Acts 20:28-31

Oh, and:

6 Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Matthew 7:6

 

[JettaKnight]

The Bible says "Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup." (1 Cor 11:28) It doesn't say I am to examine everyone else.

Frankly I've never been a fan of the "rule" that people have to be baptized before they partake in communion. Rather I would hope that someone who is open to accepting Christ would experience the gravity of why we do it and perhaps that would lead to a baptism. It's one of those things we require only because it happened in that order in Acts 2. But then I'm going through my own struggles with "requirements" of/for churches at the moment...

-rvb

Funny you should mention that...

I was always raised that communion was for baptized Christians only. I had no questions... till I heard a podcast discussing it. I really need to spend more time, but I think we may have taken some passages out of context - especially when you read 1 Cor. together, and in the context of how they were acting (i.e. their class structure).

Have we turned something that was suppose to be a meal in a small community, into a ceremony? And is that wrong?

 

[Jludo]

Almost like you can always find verses that support both sides isn't it?
Just have to pick which one you feel is more applicable?

 

[JettaKnight]

Denying Communion is actually helping him out.

What's interesting about that, in the RCC, communion is a big deal and can be used like a stick.


I'm all for church elders disciplining the flock, just not sure about using communion in that way.

Our little country church did quarterly communions (current church is 1st of the month), so if you missed it... meh. And as a Protestant, I believe that you and one or more Christians can sit in your living room with grape juice and stale crackers and just as reverently celebrate communion as you could with stained glass windows, a pipe organ, and a guy in a fancy outfit.

 

[JettaKnight]

Almost like you can always find verses that support both sides isn't it?
Just have to pick which one you feel is more applicable?

It's a darn good thing that Christianity isn't about getting the ritual correct.

 

[HoughMade]

Almost like you can always find verses that support both sides isn't it?
Just have to pick which one you feel is more applicable?

I'm game, what are the verses that require a person to give Communion to a person living in open sin?

 

[historian]

Funny you should mention that...

I was always raised that communion was for baptized Christians only. I had no questions... till I heard a podcast discussing it. I really need to spend more time, but I think we may have taken some passages out of context - especially when you read 1 Cor. together, and in the context of how they were acting (i.e. their class structure).

Have we turned something that was suppose to be a meal in a small community, into a ceremony? And is that wrong?

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT]But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. [FONT=&quot]18 [/FONT]For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, [SUP]r[/SUP]I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,[SUP]5[/SUP] [FONT=&quot]19 [/FONT]for [SUP]s[/SUP]there must be factions among you in order [SUP]t[/SUP]that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. [FONT=&quot]20 [/FONT]When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. [FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT]For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, [SUP]u[/SUP]another gets drunk. [FONT=&quot]22 [/FONT]What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise [SUP]v[/SUP]the church of God and [SUP]w[/SUP]humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT]For [SUP]x[/SUP]I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that [SUP]y[/SUP]the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, [FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT]and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for[SUP]6[/SUP] you. Do this in remembrance of me.”[SUP]7[/SUP] [FONT=&quot]25 [/FONT]In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” [FONT=&quot]26 [/FONT]For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death [SUP]z[/SUP]until he comes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]27 [/FONT][SUP]a[/SUP]Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord [SUP]b[/SUP]in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning [SUP]c[/SUP]the body and blood of the Lord. [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][SUP]d[/SUP]Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT]For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. [FONT=&quot]30 [/FONT]That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some [SUP]e[/SUP]have died.[SUP]8[/SUP] [FONT=&quot]31 [/FONT][SUP]f[/SUP]But if we judged[SUP]9[/SUP] ourselves truly, we would not be judged. [FONT=&quot]32 [/FONT]But when we are judged by the Lord, [SUP]g[/SUP]we are disciplined[SUP]10[/SUP] so that we may not be [SUP]h[/SUP]condemned along with the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]33 [/FONT]So then, my brothers,[SUP]11[/SUP] when you come together to eat, wait for[SUP]12[/SUP] one another— [FONT=&quot]34 [/FONT][SUP]i[/SUP]if anyone is hungry, [SUP]j[/SUP]let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things [SUP]k[/SUP]I will give directions [SUP]l[/SUP]when I come.

So...I would say that the whole "practice" of communion is parenthetical "For I received from the Lord..." in between a whole thing about how (as usual) the Corinthians were screwing things up in the church about being charitable to one another.[/FONT]

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah... I'm going to tag out of this one at this point.

 

[historian]

Almost like you can always find verses that support both sides isn't it?
Just have to pick which one you feel is more applicable?

More like trying to find nuance in broad statements.

Sorta like what the EPA has to do when Congress tells them to make sure the water is clean. The what, when, why, and how are left to discretion and looking at other areas of the law.

"This is my body which is broken for you." Well, that depends, as our dear friend Bill stated, on what the meaning of "is" is. The Catholics take it literally. Bread = Body. Lutherans take it somewhat differently "[FONT=&quot]the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged." [/FONT] The Baptists take it as as symbol. Like when you explain something using toys. I'll take a lego minifig and say, "This is you" and another minifig and say, "this is me." They are stand ins for the actual.

 

[historian]

Yeah... I'm going to tag out of this one at this point.

Whaaaaaaaaattttttt....come to the protestant side, we have beef during lent!

 

[T.Lex]

Whaaaaaaaaattttttt....come to the protestant side, we have beef during lent!

My friend, if that were the only obstacle, it would have been cleared long ago.

Rather, communion/nature of the eucharist is one of those dogmatic things upon which I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For me/us Catholics, it is quite literally a mystery of faith. I can no more explain or defend it than I can explain or defend the nature of God.

So, it isn't really a fertile area of conversation. IMHO.

 

[deo62]

Missouri Lutheran here-bread=body.

 

[rvb]

Denying Communion is actually helping him out.


I Corinthians 11:27-30.

As to the whole speck thing, context is everything. That is actually what we are supposed to do, especially church leadership:

what we are supposed to do is start out one on one discussion. Then take it to a small group. then the church body. This case of denying communion to Joe feels more like a political stunt than concern over a man's relationship with Christ. Seems this church skipped the whole process and went straight to treating them as a pagan. Even then, I'm not sure if all else fails communion should be a stick, rather a carrot.

ps. Matthew 18:15-17 is the one you forgot...

-rvb

 

[Jludo]

I'm game, what are the verses that require a person to give Communion to a person living in open sin?

I dont read anywhere that communion should be a thing at all, I read that particular bit as figurative/ a one time thing. If all I had was the bible and no one told me I had to eat a bread wafer and drink wine on Sunday i dont think i would have come to that conclusion. When people started making the religious rules they decided we needed some weird rituals to make it stick and make us feel like we need a hierarchy of humans telling us what to do.