CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

I had copied it and was going to post it....but then i started thinking about the filioque ....

If only there were some kind of creed which spelled out the basics of the Christian faith.

Oh wait, there is.

 

[T.Lex]

You know - it might be an interesting exercise to take the Orthodox, Catholic, and a few of the Protestant versions and do a document compare on them, then delete all the differences.

I guess that would be one way to figure out the common elements.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

You know - it might be an interesting exercise to take the Orthodox, Catholic, and a few of the Protestant versions and do a document compare on them, then delete all the differences.

I guess that would be one way to figure out the common elements.

If any fandom has taught me anything... people will cling bitterly to their "exclusives".

Common ground isn't allowed.

 

[foszoe]

Usually a conversation about LCD involves getting "saved". Orthodox would not use the word in the past tense.

Then the thief on the cross comes up. Orthodox refer to the thief on the cross as the great exception. One reason we can hope for universal salvation. God's infinite love. However most people don't seem to remember that after his confession, he um died. Most using his example aren't actually following it. We would speak of I am saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved. A life long process. Being saved is not so we get to heaven and spend eternity with God. Being saved is nothing less than being united with God.

In Orthodox worship, only Judas comes the closest to being "condemned" to hell.

We wouldn't talk about Christ paying a penalty for our sins.

We wouldn't say we place our faith in him...and we are "saved".

Here is the LCD for Orthodox, would you accept it? Would you understand it as we do?

There was an LCD once. The Orthodox Church. Then the Latins split, and the Latin West underwent the reformation.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light: true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried; And arose again on the third day according to the Scriptures; And ascended into the heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father; And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life; Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. In One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, And the life of the age to come. Amen.

WOW.....my initial thought is one of surprise, followed by disappointment.....sad actually.

Personally I believe Jesus is what our link would be. Born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, suffered and died fo our sins, rose from the dead and and is now in heaven with the Father. He sends His Holy Spirit to teach, council and such. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. We get to heaven through the penalty Christ paid for our sins. We place our faith in Him.....we are saved.

Very basic, simple and easy. Is this NOT our foundation? The fundamental Truth. All else, our differences are made up of biblical interpretation.......BUT, the fundamental
Truth is the same?

Before the orthodox, before the catholics, before the protestants - what was there? NOT the differences that separated ideas and thoughts, but rather what was the basic foundation of Christianity?

Do you truly believe there is no common (lowest) denominator between us all? Why not? IMO, to deny a common denominator suggests God is not big enough to spread His message of Truth without the interpretation of man? Did He not send His Holy Spirit for that specific reason? What was the basic, fundamental teaching of the Holy Spirit after His ascension? At that very moment, what was the common denomination between men?

Your comment suggests there never was any common denominator. I believe you are wrong.

(i am suffering from bad typo syndrome more than usual)

 

[T.Lex]

Then the Latins split, and the Latin West underwent the reformation.

When you say it like that, it kinda sounds indecent.

 

[foszoe]

Shouldn't the LCD be one?

When you say it like that, it kinda sounds indecent.

 

[rvb]

[quoted creed]

This Baptist sees only common ground in that creed.


-rvb

 

[foszoe]

As always I appreciate your posts

Here is the part I figured most protestants would have difficulty with because it means something very different depending on who you talk to.

In One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.

This Baptist sees only common ground in that creed.


-rvb

 

[T.Lex]

I don't have much credibility on this for awhile. We just changed our English-language wording a few years ago. So ours is a little different than it was when I was a kid.

Catholicism: totally hip and up-to-date.

 

[rvb]

As always I appreciate your posts

Here is the part I figured most protestants would have difficulty with because it means something very different depending on who you talk to.

And I appreciate yours. Very much. Sincerely I do. You've given great, new perspective (ok, old perspective, new to me! haha). I often reference you in our study group discussion as "my on-line Orthodox friend."

I saw that, and I figured that would be the controversial statement. I remember as a kid asking my (then Presbyterian) pastor about that and learned that in the context of the early church, that was just a reference to the one Christian church body of believers.... that I wasn't giving allegiance to a denomination as we think of in today's usage. I was ok with it then, and continue to be in that context.

A quick google says that interpretation is still valid....

Also, with the baptism, I think the biggest difference among protestants is when to do it, and how. The importance varies between denominations. For instance, growing up Presbyterian, I was baptized as an infant. (Sprinkle vs dunk doesn't hold much weight to me, though I prefer dunking, as that's how Jesus was baptized. ) I was re-baptized a couple years ago as an adult when I joined our Baptist church as an expression of my faith. Seemed appropriate after nearly a decade of not being involved in a church (Maybe just insurance incase the first one didn't take? )

-rvb

 

[Ziggidy]

Usually a conversation about LCD involves getting "saved". Orthodox would not use the word in the past tense.

Then the thief on the cross comes up. Orthodox refer to the thief on the cross as the great exception. One reason we can hope for universal salvation. God's infinite love. However most people don't seem to remember that after his confession, he um died. Most using his example aren't actually following it. We would speak of I am saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved. A life long process. Being saved is not so we get to heaven and spend eternity with God. Being saved is nothing less than being united with God.

In Orthodox worship, only Judas comes the closest to being "condemned" to hell.

We wouldn't talk about Christ paying a penalty for our sins.

We wouldn't say we place our faith in him...and we are "saved".

Here is the LCD for Orthodox, would you accept it? Would you understand it as we do?

There was an LCD once. The Orthodox Church. Then the Latins split, and the Latin West underwent the reformation.

Ok, we're getting closer (I think) to what I am asking.

We both agree, I think, that Jesus is the center of our salvation, correct?

Christ was crucified for us. God's sacrificial lamb for mankind. When I think of "crucifixion" - the purpose of His life and death on earth was to free us from sin.

You say "I am saved", "I am being saved" or "I hope to be saved" - for any one of those, how did one achieve that status, specifically right after His ascension into heaven....minutes, hours, days and weeks after? What changed in their life at that moment for them to have their assurance of salvation?

You mention being "united" with God. Not sure what you mean here. I can read it a couple of ways, including that we are an actual "part of God" (united "with") or we can be united as in "in His presence".

Last question in this post. How much time passed from Jesus' ascension into heaven and the introduction of orthodox christianity or any organized christianity began? Days, weeks years?

 

[T.Lex]

Last question in this post. How much time passed from Jesus' ascension into heaven and the introduction of orthodox christianity or any organized christianity began? Days, weeks years?

From my perspective, the beginning of the Christian church was when John started preaching about Jesus. I think a strong argument exists for other points, including Jesus' baptism by John, the miracle at Cana, and when Jesus started gathering His Apostles.

 

[foszoe]

Catholic and Orthodox would say 50 days....think about it .

well actually 10 days in response to the way Ziggidity phrased the question.

From my perspective, the beginning of the Christian church was when John started preaching about Jesus. I think a strong argument exists for other points, including Jesus' baptism by John, the miracle at Cana, and when Jesus started gathering His Apostles.

 

[Ziggidy]

From my perspective, the beginning of the Christian church was when John started preaching about Jesus. I think a strong argument exists for other points, including Jesus' baptism by John, the miracle at Cana, and when Jesus started gathering His Apostles.

I would not disagree...

My thoughts are that we do share a common denominator - we share the same ONE God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). We accept Jesus Christ as savior. That very fundamental foundation is shared by all of us, correct? Once the foundation is realized, the goal becomes real. Our Hope is in fact Christ.

I truly believe we share that foundation and share that goal. That is what the early followers of Christ shared. As years went by, for whatever reason, changes were made....not to the foundation itself or the Hope we have, but rather in the building blocks that were placed on the foundation; both non-intentional and sadly intentional.In effort to explain Hope and Truth, stuff was added. In effort to control the masses, stuff was added to the Truth and Hope. In effort to gain control for personal power, stuff was added to the Truth and Hope. Throughout the years, we have all seen this occur, but remove that STUFF and what is left is the foundation of Truth and Hope.

God wants our fellowship but we messed up; but God has given us an opportunity to re-establish that fellowship with Him; to again walk in the garden with Him. He made the opportunity easy and backed it with so much love, He gave His only Son up for sacrifice and all we have to do is accept this sacrifice and have faith.

That's all God wants! Over the years, for whatever reason, that has changed; by man ( I realize that can be argued - but not now)

There is a common denominator here, I believe, that we share. The fact that Christ died for me so I may have an opportunity to be in eternal fellowship with God. That is the heart of the foundation I believe we share. Take away all the STUFF and we are left with Truth and Hope. Simple, very simple. The early Christian did not have what we have today.

I think of the missionaries going into distant lands where Christ has never been heard of. Are they teaching about the Hope we have in Christ or are they arguing about doctrine? Which is more important?

 

[T.Lex]

Catholic and Orthodox would say 50 days....think about it .

well actually 10 days in response to the way Ziggidity phrased the question.

Yeah, but I tend to think of it in more political terms. Christianity branched off from Judaism (IMHO) should be considered the start date.

That first Pentecost is certainly important, and a reasonable alternative, but was more a "get on with it" moment.

 

[Ziggidy]

Yeah, but I tend to think of it in more political terms. Christianity branched off from Judaism (IMHO) should be considered the start date.

That first Pentecost is certainly important, and a reasonable alternative, but was more a "get on with it" moment.

IMO, it was more than just "get on with it"; however, that opinion that we may have of that time is NOT part of the foundation. IOW, doesn't help me one way or another to come into fellowship with God for all eternity.

 

[foszoe]

Are you going to make me cite the CCC???

Yeah, but I tend to think of it in more political terms. Christianity branched off from Judaism (IMHO) should be considered the start date.

That first Pentecost is certainly important, and a reasonable alternative, but was more a "get on with it" moment.

 

[foszoe]

I could interpret that statement as meaning you believe the coming of the Holy Spirit does not help you to come into fellowship with God for all eternity.
I think that would be wrong and not what you actually meant, so please correct me.

In a related question is the Holy Spirit at all essential for your salvation?

why or why not?

IMO, it was more than just "get on with it"; however, that opinion that we may have of that time is NOT part of the foundation. IOW, doesn't help me one way or another to come into fellowship with God for all eternity.

 

[Benp]

Yeah, but I tend to think of it in more political terms. Christianity branched off from Judaism (IMHO) should be considered the start date.

That first Pentecost is certainly important, and a reasonable alternative, but was more a "get on with it" moment.

Christianity was more like "the rest of the story." Before the sacrifice of Christ everyone was still under the old covenant. After His sacrifice Christ became our intercessor and we are now able to talk directly to the Father through Christ. He also sends His Holy Spirit, after we are baptized, to help us become more like him and to overcome our weaknesses and downfalls. Before we didn't have the Holy Spirit available to us.

 

[Benp]

God refers to the Holy Spirit a helper, which is the point - to help.