CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

There are forms of government which uphold Biblical standards which are not theocracies.

Name a few.

While you're at it, name a few actual governments "which uphold [or upheld] Biblical standards which are [or were] not theocracies."

I'm truly curious now.

 

[foszoe]

Is salvation more than the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Hoosierdood]

Is salvation more than the forgiveness of sins?

Yes

 

[breakingcontact]

Name a few.

While you're at it, name a few actual governments "which uphold [or upheld] Biblical standards which are [or were] not theocracies."

I'm truly curious now.

Some Republics, some Monarchies, some Oligarchies...

Many different countries all over Earth during some periods have done so.

Have they done so perfectly? Of course not, but this whole notion that government is entirely separate from Biblical morality is denying historical truth.

 

[foszoe]

Why the Byzantine Empire of course!

And what about Vatican City?

Name a few.

While you're at it, name a few actual governments "which uphold [or upheld] Biblical standards which are [or were] not theocracies."

I'm truly curious now.

 

[breakingcontact]

There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding here of the "separation of church and state". The intent was to keep the state out of the affairs of the church, not for the church to remain silent and have no influence over government.

In fact, the "Two Kingdoms" (Worldly/Civil and Spiritual/Ecclesiastical) are both under God, in different spheres, with different obligations and authorities to uphold.

The civil government is to uphold and enforce natural law, in the Western expression, this is expressed through biblical moral law, encouraging good and punishing evil.
The church government is tend to the matter of the church.

 

[breakingcontact]

Have you ever considered how believers are to interact with one another and settle matters between themselves or within the church, involving the congregation/elders, if necessary, but not to turn to the civil authorities unless they must?

 

[foszoe]

This is a great question!

Cursory reading would seem indicate that this interpretation is correct. It is not a matter that I have fleshed out thoroughly or donated immense amounts of thoughts too. Perhaps I will see if the Holy Fathers provide any additional guidance on this.

I do know that Orthodox and Catholics have a "court" system. I think Methodists do, not sure about other Protestant groups.

Can't wait to read the responses.

Have you ever considered how believers are to interact with one another and settle matters between themselves or within the church, involving the congregation/elders, if necessary, but not to turn to the civil authorities unless they must?

 

[foszoe]

https://mospat.ru/en/documents/social-concepts/iv/

Read some interesting thoughts there.

 

[T.Lex]

Some Republics, some Monarchies, some Oligarchies...

Many different countries all over Earth during some periods have done so.

Have they done so perfectly? Of course not, but this whole notion that government is entirely separate from Biblical morality is denying historical truth.

You didn't answer the question. "Afraid"?

Which "republics, monarchies oligarchies"?

It isn't whether they are "perfect" or not. Frankly, no government is, so that's an impossible goal.

Rather, it seems as though you are taking the position that some form of government with theocratic values, but not a theocracy, would be better than what we have here in the US, today.

I'm generally familiar with many governments in history, and I can't think of a single one that would be better. So, I'm very interested in being enlightened.

 

[historian]

So...Wayne Grudem of this infamy:

On another note, I found this endorsement for highly respected reformed theologian Wayne Grudem. It's targeted squarely at evangelicals like me.
Why Voting for Donald Trump Is a Morally Good Choice - Wayne Grudem

Has now written a book saying the lesser of two evils is never an option:

https://www.crossway.org/articles/do-christians-ever-need-to-choose-the-lesser-sin/

 

[JettaKnight]

And what about Vatican City?

Now that's funny, considering that Vatican I declares the Pontifex Maximus to be the civil ruler, IIRC.

Isn't the Vatican still pissed of that when Italy unified their kingdom essentially ended?

 

[T.Lex]

Now that's funny, considering that Vatican I declares the Pontifex Maximus to be the civil ruler, IIRC.

Totally unrelated, but what does the Bible say about banking compliance?

I'm asking for a friend.

sn't the Vatican still pissed of that when Italy unified their kingdom essentially ended?

Naw, they got over that a few years ago. Turned the page pretty quick by Catholic standards.

 

[JettaKnight]

This is a great question!

Cursory reading would seem indicate that this interpretation is correct. It is not a matter that I have fleshed out thoroughly or donated immense amounts of thoughts too. Perhaps I will see if the Holy Fathers provide any additional guidance on this.

I do know that Orthodox and Catholics have a "court" system. I think Methodists do, not sure about other Protestant groups.

Can't wait to read the responses.

Being Baptist, we eschew anything higher than authority at the individual church level.

We do have elders that deal with such matters if they must.

 

[JettaKnight]

What we have now is a complete mockery of what the founding fathers intended.

OK. We'll go with that. Is modern a better or worse government than Rome under Nero?




If Paul was writing about be submissive to rather oppressive and arguably immoral government, then how should we act in a less oppressive and more moral government?

We don't live in a republican anymore, just in name.

You're going to have to show your work on this one.

There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding here of the "separation of church and state". The intent was to keep the state out of the affairs of the church, not for the church to remain silent and have no influence over government.

In fact, the "Two Kingdoms" (Worldly/Civil and Spiritual/Ecclesiastical) are both under God, in different spheres, with different obligations and authorities to uphold.

The civil government is to uphold and enforce natural law, in the Western expression, this is expressed through biblical moral law, encouraging good and punishing evil.
The church government is tend to the matter of the church.

I think everyone here totally supports Christians having an influence on their government. We just don't believe the concept of supporting lesser magistrates who would openly and flagrantly defy the law.

 

[JettaKnight]

So...Wayne Grudem of this infamy:



Has now written a book saying the lesser of two evils is never an option:

https://www.crossway.org/articles/do-christians-ever-need-to-choose-the-lesser-sin/

Really? Hmm.

I'm going to have to read that book; I'm a huge fan of his tome Systematic Theology - that's the book to grab for tarantulas.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Wow, now there's a stretch.

Sex abuse.

 

[foszoe]

Happy and Blessed Feast of the Holy Transfiguration Day

Happy and Blessed Feast of the Holy Transfiguration Day

Take some time to read the scriptures of the day to see how the OT prefigures the NT and the NT reveals the OT!

Its also a nice break in the Dormition Fast!

• Exodus 24:12-18
• Composite 15 - Exodus 33:11-23; 34:4-6, 8
• Composite 23 - 3 [1] Kings 19:3-9, 11-13, 15, 16
• Luke 9:28-36
• 2 Peter 1:10-19
• Matthew 17:1-9

 

[breakingcontact]

Being Baptist, we eschew anything higher than authority at the individual church level.

We do have elders that deal with such matters if they must.

I was curious why y'all cared so much what a man in Rome wearing a pointy hat, who sometimes wears a triple crown, said or did.

 

[T.Lex]

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