Church Plans Quran Burning on Sept. 11th

[Joe Williams]

I'm not the most religious guy that I know, but if one claims to truly be a Christian, then they should somewhat support burning the Koran. Here is my thought as to why. If you are trying to be the best Christian influence that you can be to those around you, then you gotta know that you are always influencing someone. Wouldn't the Koran be a means of worshiping a false god? And maybe be considered blasphemous? As I said I am not the most well versed, just asking a question. I find this topic interesting.

Indeed, I think the Koran is blasphemous. But burning the book Muslims regard as holy for them will not do anything to bring them to Christ, it will drive them away.

What we must strive to do is bring them to Christ, so they want to burn the book on their own.

The church is behaving counter productively.

 

[Tactical Dave]

Christ didn't teach this.

Neither does the Koran tell people to kill but radicals say otherwise.........

Neither will this do any good, will only anger them as much as them burning the bible would anger us.......

 

[LPMan59]

totally agree, but again, there is a big difference between a supremacist and someone wanting to live among their own, regardless of color.

in principle maybe, in reality not at all.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

A big quote page, please bare with me.

Indeed, I think the Koran is blasphemous. But burning the book Muslims regard as holy for them will not do anything to bring them to Christ, it will drive them away.

What we must strive to do is bring them to Christ, so they want to burn the book on their own.

The church is behaving counter productively.

I dont look at the Koran burning as hateful, evil or anything else; Then again, I dont view Islam as a Religion of peace, but a religion built upon pure evil, hatred and vey immoral deeds of action.

I also do consider that as Islam declared war upon the West, there MUST be a level of consideration taken in when dealing with the Religion.

The book burning on 9/11 could be symbolic of so many thing's one can only speculate about the meaning, hate, love, peace - are all applicable here.

People want to see this burning as evil, but not as good - WHY?

Is there sometype of deeper, darker subconcious feeling toward Christianity?
I suspect there is, and I suspect many wrongly have this view.

Though I do, and honestly admit, am troubled by some aspects regarding the Christianization of Europe, Christianity has done alot more good than evil, as I've shown in this thread regarding Islam.

WHY DO PEOPLE HERE SEEM TO PROTECT THE OPPRESSIVE CULT KNOWN AS ISLAM?

I just watched that clip about 5 more times. It just gets funnier as the camera angle changes. Oh and the Sheen brothers were in their prime too..Before two and a half men and the mighty ducks. What happened!

Aint that the truth. I've never been able to sit through an entire showing of Mighty Ducks.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds NHV... In one thread you praise the Amish, and profess to want to "learn their ways". Yet now, you deplore the peace and tolerance of most Christians. You mock pascifism, but yet hold the Amish in high regard.

I submit the following:

The Pagan Roots Of The Fascist Culture


BTW, do I get any Internet antagonism points for bringing to the discussion, a: Hitler, b: Fascism, and c: a link from an Islamic website (that just happens to denounce anti-semitism)

You think the Amish would accept Islam?? Im curious how you reached this conclusion.
Yes, I admire the Amish. Surrounded by vice and degenerancy, they stand strong.

Not abunch of Christian-in-name, but practicing Christians, who do they're absolute best to follow CHRIST, not Churchanity, which exposes the political will in doctrine.

My favorite News caption this past year, was how Pelosi wanted the Catholic Church to promote how God would endorse immigration of an illegal nature, but that same twisted hag would certainly be the first to interject to Conservative Christian views being promoted.

Ofcourse I mock pascifism, as it's being taught to Christians. Again, had 9/11 occured 60 years ago, when America was a REAL, no BS Christian Nation, there would be NO HEARTS AND MINDS, not a single consideration for the sensitivity of our foes, we'd smash them as they have deserved, and God help them if they said they declared war upon the West.

There would be NO Stagnation in Iraq or Astan, and we would NOT have pathetic leaders in the Military creating R&R which are counter to safety of the boot on the ground.

Christianity has a proud heritage of Warrior ethos. Jesus was not a peace hippy. His own action proved this.

And no, you will recieve no points from me regarding Fascism, Hitler or some muslim site which denounces Anti-semiticism.

Here's some food for thought you can chew brother.

The Holocaust of Christians occured under the Communist Flag, that is 20 to 60 MILLION dead Christians, for BEING Christians.
So if you want to talk Fascism, than Im going to hit you with Communism, Bolsheviks, Marxism and Trotskism

Hitler, has nothing on Lenin or even Trotsky, who even after his death, his vile message lives, and lives strong in America.

As for a Muslim being Anti-Semitic - Well freaking hurrr durrr. A muslim is racially Semitic. For a Muslim to be Anti-semitic is just plain crap logic, promoted by a media agenda to make a boohoo victim.

It should be noted that those who cry "Anti-semitic" regarding Islam, are not truly Semitic themselves, atleast regarding a comparison between Muslims.

I really have no use for out and out racists. They are not welcome in my home or circle of friends.

I can only judge a person by their actions.

Keith, isnt this a fallacy? How many Racist do you honestly know? How can you judge someones actions, you never met, and do not even welcome into your life?

Many here suggest they hate me (Nevermind, I've seen afew suggest protection for criminals.) <------ Isnt that sad, a Child molester is better than someone who could be considered "racist". mmmmhmmm Speaks highly of the nature of those individuals.

Back to the topic. There are some here who suggest they hate me, that Im disgusting, "The Enemy". Yet, I break no laws, I infringe on not one, I speak couragously, not from emotion, but facts.

And thus begins the slippery slope of using religion to justify the infringement of liberty.

Just as with any free speech, you don't gain anything by trying to eliminate that which you disagree with. How can you refute a religions basis, if you eliminate the texts of that religion?

To be a good Christian you ought to live a good life and spread the good news. Nothing in that message says anything about eliminating bad influences on others. You can lead people to the word of God, but you can't force them to accept it in their heart.

Really?

So being a good Christian, implies doing NOTHING when there is a wrong, or evil in the world??

Would Christ have done nothing in the face of evil??

Not since the Crusades have Christians advocated destroying those things with which they did not agree, and even then, they were completely misguided.

Christianity is about tolerance and forgiveness.

Let me make this clear. WRONG


Christians have burned many books, since the Crusades. Or perhaps you forget about American heritage?

Christians have been the most tolerant & forgiving people; However, this doesnt apply to ALL aspects.

I hate seeing Christians on the News talking about Forgiving and being tolerant of child molesters, murderers, and other evils.

The Forgive/Tolerant themes, have been perverted throughout Churchanity to make Christians weak, and ultimately cowardly in the face of they're own oppression.

This defensiveness is a natural human reaction to perceived attack.

your average non-white just wants the same opportunities and to be treated fairly by the system.


And on the extreme on both sides are a whole bunch of people yelling back and forth. And those in the middle will be accused by both sides of being traitors or abusers or whatever. Which is true of just about every human conflict.

1). Cite these "perceieved" attacks.

Im just curious where perception turns into reality, when ignoring all the "signs" is no longer acceptable.

2). Please cite the second comment.

As I've researched, alot of the non-White feelings steem from Communism - Directly, and ultimately nothing but hypocrisy from the liberal/communist, who go out of they're way to live far away from the 'joys' they preach, in big gated walled, communities, with 24/7 Security.

3). Lastly, I'll address, there are two types of people.

Those who relay on Facts, and those who dont.

Those who have real world experience/knowledge, and those who live in a fantsey world.

These are the facts regarding the 'us vs them'.

It has very little to do with race, but it's spun that way. If the Irish were acting or promoting, they're would be a heap of Anti-Irish Blocks - WHAT THEN?

Most ignorantly call Black Slavery in America nothing but White supremacism.
Nevermind that the first slaves in America, where Scot/Irish; Nevermind, that many Scots and Irish were slaves in America, and recieved very harsh treatment.

Why no reperasation for those decendants? Why not outcry for them?

It's called ignorant hypocrisy. You will either know the facts, or folks will continue to be ignorant.

Looks like another Christian bashing party begins....

What can you expect Brother? Being Anti-Christian is the new trend.
You can thank Churchanity, Hollywood, Media, cowardly politicians, entertainment industry.

White nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

White Nationalism has NOTHING to do with WHITE Supremacism.
To say such is a fallacy, and totally lacking in regards to other forms of Nationalism, like the Jewish State of Israel is a Nationalistic State.
Islam, is a Nationalistic Religion.
La Raza is Nationalistic agenda.

America's founders promoted a very White Nationalist Nation, and had they lived in this modern age, would be seen as more vile than David Duke by the population.
They had no intentions of America EVER being spun in the direction it has taken, this we see clearly in they're speech, and laws.

WN does not advocate ruling all people, but the right to self determination, limited Govt, and the right to preserve the cultural heritage of ALL PEOPLES, not just Whites.

WN, expresses the beliefs in Science to NOT BE INFRINGED UPON, by POLITICAL DESIRE.

WN, expresses the belief that no foriegn entity has the right to control any Nation or People (UN), various alliances, and NATO fall under this, along with economical unions like the disgusting EU.

The list is longer, and more detailed; Unfortunately, I am considered an idiot amongst WN and I could not probably give proper due credit to all the beliefs.

However, I will note, that within WN, you have various, diverse group of people.
Some with more Traditional Christian beliefs, and others who agnostic, Athiest, Pagans, deist - The religious perspective is very wide. From Hindu/Buddhist Pagans, to Slavic, Greek, Celtic and Germanic pagans.

Even Christianity is very diverse in Sects of beliefs, from Christian Isreal to baptist to lutheran, and everything inbetween.

Politically, WN accepts Pro-life/Pro-choice, which should hint to the wide range of social views held.

Who is attracted? I've seen Doctors, lawyers, Police, Military service, Politicians, professional Business folks, to the more sterotypical blue collar, workers.

WN being a broad term, has taken off in leaps and bounds across Europe, with Nationalistic Parties gaining major footholes.

In America, there is the American 3rd Position, which is specifically WN oriented; However, WN have run on the Democrat and Republican Ticket, and successfully carried the win.

There is more to WN than the media propergated spin of 'hate', evil, "hitlerism" and supremacism.

 

[dross]

I'm not much on banning speech or kicking people off the board unless they've reached the point of personal obnoxiousness (and this guy is pretty civil in his discourse, distasteful though his views are) but I find it difficult to understand the policy that won't allow a discussion about when may be the right time to resort to force (a tenet of our country's founding) yet this kind of racist crap is tolerated.

Just sayin'.

 

[Son of Liberty]

Blah Blah, it's all blah blah.
In the end, your are an ass if you go around burning any religious books, or flags or anything to promote your hate of another group of people.

Nordic on your white nationalist views and definitions, all the white nationalist I have ever met or talked to were racist. Their white pride crossed the line from white pride, to racism.
And just because some of these people are professionals means nothing, it just means they didn't want to do manual labor, but otherwise are backwards in their thinking. There might be more to the WN than hate, but Ive yet to see it.

In an eairler post NV, you asked why I supported a religion wherein they allow slavery in Africa, and they view Arabs as above blacks.
The answer is because those particular views and ideas are not held by the religion as a whole. You are using individual thought processes to judge an entire religion.

You seem to pick and choose when its ok to judge a hope group of people based off of a few of the individuals within the group.

I.e. I have read you over and over again apply blanket thought process and actions on blacks, hispanics, and expecially muslims.
As if one represents all.
You hate it when its done to whites and the WN, but its cool to do it to everyone else.

 

[Fletch]

Jesus was not a peace hippy. His own action proved this.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree, contingent on the definition of "peace hippy". Jesus was not an uber-pacifist as many would have Him portrayed, but neither was He a warrior in the physical sense. He drove the moneychangers from the temple, true, but He did so for a very specific purpose, referencing very specific scriptures. His other actions throughout the Gospels were actions of love, mercy, kindness, generosity, and servitude. Taken as a whole, you might call Him 95% "peace hippy" and 5% "warrior" (or some similar ratio), but His use for violence was limited to a specific set of circumstances.

Christians have been the most tolerant & forgiving people; However, this doesnt apply to ALL aspects.

I hate seeing Christians on the News talking about Forgiving and being tolerant of child molesters, murderers, and other evils.

Then you must really hate seeing my posts. At least you're in good company on that count.

The Forgive/Tolerant themes, have been perverted throughout Churchanity to make Christians weak, and ultimately cowardly in the face of they're own oppression.

The "Forgive/Tolerant themes" are exactly what Jesus taught. He interceded on behalf of those who were condemned or cast out. In parable after parable, he talks about forgiving those who have wronged us, praying for those who persecute us, loving those who hate us, having mercy on those who sin, and meeting needs of those who lack. Where Christ teaches us to examine, judge, and condemn is only within our own hearts -- to hold ourselves to impossibly high standards of love and forgiveness.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

Blah Blah, it's all blah blah.

Insightful speech, brother.

In the end, your are an ass if you go around burning any religious books, or flags or anything to promote your hate of another group of people.

Well, tell that some some INGO folks who think it's quite OK to burn the Flag, but doom if you wish to burn the koran.

Again, my disdain from Islam, is ONLY reactionary to Islam itself.

I cannot curb my morality, for a religion built upon evil.

And if it was Zorastinians, what might you say afterwards?

Nordic on your white nationalist views and definitions, all the white nationalist I have ever met or talked to were racist.

Racist is a loard word. Perhaps the better term would be non-PC.
Do you disdain them for that? Or for standing up for themselves?

I have yet to see you denounce the NAACP, Black Panther party, but comparatively speaking, these groups are the same, just different color.

Their white pride crossed the line from white pride, to racism.

"White pride" IMO, is ridiculous.

Im not proud to be "White". I am proud of my cultural heritage.
'White' is a very general term, to describe various people, from Americans, Europeans, Persians, People of the Caucaous, and some Middle Eastern people, Austerians, some South Americans, Canadians, North and South Africans.

I am proud of MY heritage, I admire other heritages, even ones which are NOT "White".

And just because some of these people are professionals means nothing, it just means they didn't want to do manual labor, but otherwise are backwards in their thinking. There might be more to the WN than hate, but Ive yet to see it.

Then talk to me, brother. You will learn the sterotypical imagery is not correct.
WN addresses problems, no one in either Democrat or Republican party touches, and seeks to correct/solve problems, not antagonize the issue. The Spin doctors are the ones who make legitimate issues into spun "hate issues."

Arizona is a prime example of this occuring.

In an eairler post NV, you asked why I supported a religion wherein they allow slavery in Africa, and they view Arabs as above blacks.
The answer is because those particular views and ideas are not held by the religion as a whole. You are using individual thought processes to judge an entire religion.

I can accept that opinion. But to me it makes no sense, as Islam has promoted African slavery longer and more harsher.
The views are not individualist, if you consider a "slave" trade must require some level of general acceptance of the populous.

You seem to pick and choose when its ok to judge a hope group of people based off of a few of the individuals within the group.

I dont believe I have picked and choose. I do my best to be fair regarding all issues.

For instance, I've been hassled for slamming the actions of Black criminals, but no one hassled me when I've slammed the actions of White criminals.

I wont deny, I have picked and chosen my fight, I doubt many people can say they do not pick and choose they're fight, either.
But again, with all aspects, I do my best to promote an honest view, and when I've been found to be wrong, I accept the defeat, as some INGO posters can note applicably at they're choosing.

I.e. I have read you over and over again apply blanket thought process and actions on blacks, hispanics, and expecially muslims.

Well, brother.

Sterotypes are NOT often wrong. Statistic's dont lie.

I dont think Im wrong, regarding those issues. I think Im bringing up issues that MUST be addressed to be SOLVED, not brushed under the rug.

As if one represents all.
You hate it when its done to whites and the WN, but its cool to do it to everyone else.

I accept when it's done to Whites, sometimes it's right, and sometimes is nothing more than politic's.

Anything remotely Pro-White is hailed as evil, demonic and nazism. I've seen many Pro-White groups tuck tail and run away from anything associated with Nazis, as they should, and still got labled.

The Tea Party is one example.

If something is correct, I wont refute.


Cant imagine what would've occured if Bush said the following.


President Obama calls African-Americans a ‘mongrel people’

 

[Redemption]

I condemn NordicHeathenVinlander's ideas and recommend that he is banned from INGO. The purpose of INGO, as I understand it, is to promote responsible gun ownership and the shooting sports in Indiana. Words of intolerance from a white supremacist only hurt the cause of responsible gunowners in Indiana, and shrink our potential audience.

On what grounds? You don't like what he says in the POLITICAL section?
You sound a little intolerant yourself.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

How clear do we have to be.....

You have the RIGHT to burn the flag.
You have the RIGHT to burn the Koran.
You have the RIGHT to do just about anything that you want...

I disagree VEHEMENTLY with you DOING it.

Not having the RIGHT to do it.

Very different thing.

You were given the RIGHT to do it NATURALLY, BY YOUR CREATOR . I have the ultimate in respect for that.

If you choose to use it like a dumbass - well, I DON'T have respect for that.


I repudiate ALL who hate based on the color of their skin. Or heritage. etc.

I am not proud of people merely because they are of the same heritage as me. That respect MUST BE EARNED. Deeds, not blue blood.

I have NO problem with Obama based on his heritage. I have TONS of reasons to disagree VEHEMENTLY with him and not like him based on his DEEDS.

This is not that hard to understand.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Everyone preaching that this is extremism are of course right.

And the fact that they're condemning it means they really don't have an accurate view of the slaughterful worldview that is Islam.

 

[dross]

How clear do we have to be.....

You have the RIGHT to burn the flag.
You have the RIGHT to burn the Koran.
You have the RIGHT to do just about anything that you want...

I disagree VEHEMENTLY with you DOING it.

Not having the RIGHT to do it.

Very different thing.

You were given the RIGHT to do it NATURALLY, BY YOUR CREATOR . I have the ultimate in respect for that.

If you choose to use it like a dumbass - well, I DON'T have respect for that.


I repudiate ALL who hate based on the color of their skin. Or heritage. etc.

I am not proud of people merely because they are of the same heritage as me. That respect MUST BE EARNED. Deeds, not blue blood.

I have NO problem with Obama based on his heritage. I have TONS of reasons to disagree VEHEMENTLY with him and not like him based on his DEEDS.

This is not that hard to understand.

Pride based on the accident of one's birth makes no sense.

 

[Keith_Indy]

Everyone preaching that this is extremism are of course right.

And the fact that they're condemning it means they really don't have an accurate view of the slaughterful worldview that is Islam.

Condemning these acts has nothing to with Islam, or what they do. It's the actions of Christians that we are disagreeing with.

So should we just burn the books of anything we disagree with? Because that's what these Christian Americans are starting to do. And that's what people who are praising them are starting to do.

They are justifying the destruction of information. Once you start justifying that, where does it stop.

 

[dross]

Maybe they should burn some flags, too, because of the U.S.'s soft stance on Islam.

 

[PatriotPride]

Pride based on the accident of one's birth makes no sense.

To you perhaps. I see little wrong with being proud that God created you a certain nationality or ethnic group. Would I say that it's wrong for the Jews to be proud that God has chosen them as His people? No. The problem, to me, arises when persons claim superiority based on that nationality or ethnic group. To be proud of how you were created is not wrong in and of itself.

 

[PatriotPride]

They are justifying the destruction of information. Once you start justifying that, where does it stop.

Some information needs to be destroyed. If I confiscate a magazine or book that condones homosexual rape, then I will destroy it. Allowing it to remain with an inmate could cause serious problems to the welfare of security of the 450+ persons under my care. Likewise, if someone handed me a Quran (which I HAVE read btw) I would destroy it, as it's values and teachings (pedophilia, genocide, polygamy, bigamy...the list goes on) have no place in my home. I DO believe that this church is doing it the wrong way. If you're going to destroy a manifestation of evil, then do it. NO need to do it in public. I DO agree with your concern of "where does it stop"...it's a dangerous road to take.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

There seems to be multiple definitions of "OK" in this inquiry.

OK to burn the flag: I'll argue that it should be legal. I'll argue that, so long as it's your flag, no harm should come to you as a result. And though it's never come up on this forum when flag burning is discussed, I'll also argue that you could probably find better ways to express yourself, and state that I'd really rather you didn't burn the flag.

OK to burn the Koran: See above.

OK to be anti-Christian: This sort of implies that the person who is anti-Christian is not a Christian (though I've known some who probably violate this). I'd rather folks got along with my Christianity, but if they can't, I'm really sorry to hear that.

OK to be anti-Muslim: This is the flip side, and there's an implication that the anti-Muslim is a Christian, though Hindus and Buddhists might also go this route. The problem is that Christianity specifically (and the others generally) holds its followers to a higher standard of tolerance for others. I'm not going to argue in favor of comic-book pacifism on the part of Christians, because I don't believe in it. But hatred is an active thing... it burns calories, so to speak, and God has different ideas of where and how we should spend our energy.

A church deciding to hold a Koran-burning is simply doing more damage to the worldwide image of Christianity as a whole than anything Muslims can do to denigrate us. The image of the global Christian Church is supposed to be one of those who make peace, who serve the needs of those around them, who sow love and justice and kindness. Christ does not call us to a life of rulership, but to a life of servitude. Burning the sacred books of another religion serves none of these purposes. So again, it's their right to do it... I'm certainly not going to drive to Florida and hold a gun to their heads and tell them they can't. I just wish they wouldn't. It's going to take a long time and a lot of effort to rebuild the damage they will do.

All good points save that you seem to be forgetting that we are at WAR and they are doing their best to destroy us and to undermine our culture and your religion, the pre-dominant religion of this country.

Changes aren't permanent, but change is, and whether it will be for better or worse is up to us. I'm all for the provocation of the mussies, because when they lash out on a completely disproportionate scale, the entire world will then understand precisely the violence which they condone, and then even your excusable, noble reasons will have no merit.

 

[dross]

To you perhaps. I see little wrong with being proud that God created you a certain nationality or ethnic group. Would I say that it's wrong for the Jews to be proud that God has chosen them as His people? No. The problem, to me, arises when persons claim superiority based on that nationality or ethnic group. To be proud of how you were created is not wrong in and of itself.

I'm convinced.

I'm now bursting with pride at my milky white skin, my good looks, and my large....well let's just say, certain majestic personal attributes.

I thought I should just be GRATEFUL at my good fortune of having been born here. I thought pride was reserved for the things I've earned, not the things that were bestowed upon me.

 

[signut49]

You're right. Everyone thought the 911 hijackers were a bunch of nice guys. Just your run of the mill Muslims. UNTIL 9-11. FOR EVERY SUPPOSED GOOD ONE, THERE ARE PROBABLY 10,000 BAD ONES. BE REALISTIC.

While I'm sure it's not easy to believe... and certainly there are fakers. Ya might want to consider the case of a guy named Saul... very well educated zealot that didn't like Christians too much. He had a pretty close encounter with Diety and changed his mind. Changed his name to Paul (as in the apostle Paul). It CAN happen. People CAN change their lives around.

Just sayin' ....

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Condemning these acts has nothing to with Islam, or what they do. It's the actions of Christians that we are disagreeing with.

So should we just burn the books of anything we disagree with? Because that's what these Christian Americans are starting to do. And that's what people who are praising them are starting to do.

They are justifying the destruction of information. Once you start justifying that, where does it stop.

They aren't burning Galileo Galilei's tomes on the movements of the moon and Earth - they're committing symbolic speech in protest. As for your slippery slope, that's a farce. Once they start burning the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, then we'll have some words. This isn't Fahrenheit 451 - conceded though that some Americans are censors to that degree - this is about a group of people who've obviously had enough of the lie that islam is 'peaceful' or 'a religion of peace.' They're not burning all the copies of some great work of literature, they're burning a handful of copies of mythological tales. This age is not the age of the Library of Alexandria and these aren't the sole copies of the 'holy' book of islam, one which I refuse on principle to name... the Library of Alexandria burned holding the only copies in the world of most of the books contained therein. Today we have mass publishing and this by no means threatens to eliminate the entirety of that book from this planet (would that it were so!). This is an ultimately pointless but poignant demonstration in what is supposed to be the freest nation on Earth and neither you nor I have the right to deny them their means of legal and moral redress and protest.

Speech is and forever shall be protected in America.