Church Plans Quran Burning on Sept. 11th

[Woodrow]

This defensiveness is a natural human reaction to perceived attack. It is much easier to do than to try to understand the underlying issues involved. Heck, most people can't understand their spouse, let alone someone who is different culturally from themselves. I see it as an expression of frustration that stems from conflicting messages. I've seen it up close and personal from both sides. There is an attack from some folks in our society on the white middle class, and there is an overreaction from some of the white middle class in response to it. Most people are caught in the middle, your average white middle class male wants to be fair to folks, but doesn't know what that means and gets accused of things they aren't, and your average non-white just wants the same opportunities and to be treated fairly by the system. And on the extreme on both sides are a whole bunch of people yelling back and forth. And those in the middle will be accused by both sides of being traitors or abusers or whatever. Which is true of just about every human conflict.

You're right, and this is a good summary, I just like having fun with it.

 

[HICKMAN]

I condemn NordicHeathenVinlander's ideas and recommend that he is banned from INGO. The purpose of INGO, as I understand it, is to promote responsible gun ownership and the shooting sports in Indiana. Words of intolerance from a white supremacist only hurt the cause of responsible gunowners in Indiana, and shrink our potential audience.

again, white nationalism is not white supremacy...

why can we have Black Expo, Gay Pride parades, La Raza, but one group of people have a motto of "white pride" and they are demonized as racist? It's okay for everyone BUT whites to celebrate their culture.

My wife is native American and Danish mix, can she not be proud of both?

I find it ironic that we've had several anti-Islam/sharia law/muslim threads posted here, but the second NHV does it people back off for fear of being "racist" because they might agree with something he says.

Islam is not a race, it's a religion taking over the world and getting more radical every year. Europe certainly isn't what it was when I was stationed over there.

 

[Ogre]

Looks like another Christian bashing party begins....

I don't think anyone is bashing Christians. I think it's a stupid act because this church is doing the same BS that the muslim extremists would do. How many times do we see news footage fromt he mid east of people burning bibles, US flags.... I know when I see that, I think to myself, what a bunch of idiots. Well, I guess they get to say the same. This is nothing more than people taking themselves to the lowest common denominator. No thanks.

 

[shibumiseeker]

why can we have Black Expo, Gay Pride parades, La Raza, but one group of people have a motto of "white pride" and they are demonized as racist? It's okay for everyone BUT whites to celebrate their culture.

When non-white or non straight people I know who are militant start spouting their particular version of bigotry I speak up then too. You won't tend to see me do it on this board because there's not a large group of people here who aren't white middle class, and the ones who aren't white middle class don't tend to say much here about it.

See, this is a gun board. Not a white Judeo-Christian gun board, not a Muslim gun board, not a Hispanic gun board, not a GLBT gun board. I suspect if we stuck to our guns and avoided politics, most here would get along much better online methinks.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Yeah, he did. And he really believes it too. Often times the people carryng on about their rights being trampled are the same folks who are happy to do the trampling and they either don't see they are doing it or they don't care.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. OP had a number of points of complaint that deserve addressing.

If we believe in the Constitutional rights we all espouse, in some measure, doesn't that mean "equal rights for all"? Political Correctness in all its forms is a way for a minority to suppress the free speech and thought of someone else. Those of you who (rightly, I believe) chastise others over the church-sponsored burning of another religion's Holy Book, seem perfectly willing to deny the OP his right to be offended at your attitude.

It is foolishness in the extreme to ignore facts (it hasn't been white Americans who've been trying to blow up airplanes lately) so as to assuage the tender sensibilities of another group (from which a subset of individuals HAS been trying to blow up airplanes) and reject the common-sense use of profiling both to increase safety to airline passengers and reduce the amount of annoyance other airline passengers face.

It's also unfair that Christians should be restricted from practicing their religion in schools, government, businesses, when people with other religious/philosophical beliefs are permitted to do so.

It's unfair that white males are consistantly identified as all kinds of "-ist", while other sexes and ethnic persuasions are immune to such off-hand criticisms.

When people feel that they are being put upon, they have a natural tendency to want to strike back at their tormentors. After all, I don't see a whole lot of cheek-turning when one of you gets insulted.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I don't think anyone is bashing Christians. I think it's a stupid act because this church is doing the same BS that the muslim extremists would do. How many times do we see news footage fromt he mid east of people burning bibles, US flags.... I know when I see that, I think to myself, what a bunch of idiots. Well, I guess they get to say the same. This is nothing more than people taking themselves to the lowest common denominator. No thanks.

I think a lot of people are bashing Christians. I also don't think you understand that people in other cultures don't think like you do or react in the same way to stimulae that you would react.

Christians in general, and white male Christians in particular, have reason to feel put upon based upon the way current laws are being enacted, interpreted and enforced. Saying it doesn't matter just because your particular ox hasn't been gored yet isn't in line with your knee jerk reactions about other freedoms. (Lest anyone take personal offense, I'm speaking of the general sense of the criticism being displayed here, not of any particular individual).

 

[Fletch]

Saying it doesn't matter just because your particular ox hasn't been gored yet...

My ox looks like swiss cheese... and I still maintain that there's some things that are better left unsaid/undone, like burning Korans.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. OP had a number of points of complaint that deserve addressing.

If we believe in the Constitutional rights we all espouse, in some measure, doesn't that mean "equal rights for all"? Political Correctness in all its forms is a way for a minority to suppress the free speech and thought of someone else. Those of you who (rightly, I believe) chastise others over the church-sponsored burning of another religion's Holy Book, seem perfectly willing to deny the OP his right to be offended at your attitude.

Not at all. If someone is getting all butthurt because someone else fnds their attitudes or beliefs offensive, they either need to examine their beliefs and attitudes or need to grow a thicker skin. Something I believe I have hear many of those same people say the other direction...

It is foolishness in the extreme to ignore facts (it hasn't been white Americans who've been trying to blow up airplanes lately) so as to assuage the tender sensibilities of another group (from which a subset of individuals HAS been trying to blow up airplanes) and reject the common-sense use of profiling both to increase safety to airline passengers and reduce the amount of annoyance other airline passengers face.

We've had our share of white homegrown terrorists too. As far as airline safety, I firmly believe all passengers should be armed and ready to take down ANYONE who is trying to harm the aircraft or passengers. I don't fly commercial much anymore specifically because the new "security" is just an excuse for making people into sheep.

It's also unfair that Christians should be restricted from practicing their religion in schools, government, businesses, when people with other religious/philosophical beliefs are permitted to do so.

Please show me where this is going on? There are zillions of examples of Christian or Catholic symbolisms and expressions in schools and government, but some folks get up in arms when ANY different religion tries to have theirs. Most of the challenges have nothing to do with having one particular religion involved in governement, but in having government out of endorsing any religion. As far as business, a business can have whatever iconography they want, if their customers don't like it they can go elsewhere.


It's unfair that white males are consistantly identified as all kinds of "-ist", while other sexes and ethnic persuasions are immune to such off-hand criticisms.

Immune? Hardly. There are just as many bigots in every other scope that you can imagine, and they get called on it too. Perhaps not as obviously, but people are hurling these labels back and forth without really having a clue as to what they are talking about.


When people feel that they are being put upon, they have a natural tendency to want to strike back at their tormentors. After all, I don't see a whole lot of cheek-turning when one of you gets insulted.

Which was precisely the point of my later post.

My comments in red.

 

[shooter521]

again, white nationalism is not white supremacy...

White nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Blackhawk2001]

My comments in red.

Aside from Timothy McVeigh et al, and the Unibomber, how many more white terrorists have we had than Jihadists since 1985? How many have we had since 9/11? Since we totally agree on airline security, I will say no more about that.

(Snipped)

I stand corrected. Just read this article on STRATFOR:

Escalating Violence From the Animal Liberation Front

Says the majority of these are caucasian.

Escalating Violence From the Animal Liberation Front | STRATFOR

 

[Blackhawk2001]

White nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It must be true. I read it on the Internet.

 

[shibumiseeker]

My observation is that normal people who have never expressed any animus toward any other particular group, will begin to react badly to being falsely accused. I believe _that_ is the root of OP's post, rather than some sort of "-ism".

Which was exactly what I was saying when I posted:

"
This defensiveness is a natural human reaction to perceived attack. It is much easier to do than to try to understand the underlying issues involved. Heck, most people can't understand their spouse, let alone someone who is different culturally from themselves. I see it as an expression of frustration that stems from conflicting messages. I've seen it up close and personal from both sides. There is an attack from some folks in our society on the white middle class, and there is an overreaction from some of the white middle class in response to it. Most people are caught in the middle, your average white middle class male wants to be fair to folks, but doesn't know what that means and gets accused of things they aren't, and your average non-white just wants the same opportunities and to be treated fairly by the system. And on the extreme on both sides are a whole bunch of people yelling back and forth. And those in the middle will be accused by both sides of being traitors or abusers or whatever. Which is true of just about every human conflict."

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Which was exactly what I was saying when I posted:

"
This defensiveness is a natural human reaction to perceived attack. It is much easier to do than to try to understand the underlying issues involved. Heck, most people can't understand their spouse, let alone someone who is different culturally from themselves. I see it as an expression of frustration that stems from conflicting messages. I've seen it up close and personal from both sides. There is an attack from some folks in our society on the white middle class, and there is an overreaction from some of the white middle class in response to it. Most people are caught in the middle, your average white middle class male wants to be fair to folks, but doesn't know what that means and gets accused of things they aren't, and your average non-white just wants the same opportunities and to be treated fairly by the system. And on the extreme on both sides are a whole bunch of people yelling back and forth. And those in the middle will be accused by both sides of being traitors or abusers or whatever. Which is true of just about every human conflict."

Yep, but I hadn't gotten that far when I excerpted the quote and started to respond.

 

[DragonGunner]

Scared of book burnings.....?.....You all know it is in the bible right...?..you know, the story of christianity coming to a community, they gave their lives to Jesus, then gathered their pagan an such books an burned them.....if some one gave me a quran, I would burn it too...in fact 30 years ago after giving my life to Christ I had some evil things that pricked my conscience....I took them an burned them. I also already know that to all mankind I'm a nobody...but to Jesus, I'm somebody. I'm not bashing the OP, in fact I have to have some respect for a guy that says he isn't a christian, but a pagan. "Be either hot or cold, but if your lukewarm I will spit you out." Theirs is far more hope for the OP than some who claim "christianity" but have lost thier "saltiness"....which makes it worthless.

 

[Fletch]

Scared of book burnings.....?.....You all know it is in the bible right...?..you know, the story of christianity coming to a community, they gave their lives to Jesus, then gathered their pagan an such books an burned them.....if some one gave me a quran, I would burn it too...in fact 30 years ago after giving my life to Christ I had some evil things that pricked my conscience....I took them an burned them. I also already know that to all mankind I'm a nobody...but to Jesus, I'm somebody. I'm not bashing the OP, in fact I have to have some respect for a guy that says he isn't a christian, but a pagan. "Be either hot or cold, but if your lukewarm I will spit you out." Theirs is far more hope for the OP than some who claim "christianity" but have lost thier "saltiness"....which makes it worthless.

You're talking about two different purposes for book burning. The Biblical account is a casting off of idols that tempt the individual doing the burning. The burning in the OP is a political demonstration. Can you really not understand the difference?

 

[HICKMAN]

When non-white or non straight people I know who are militant start spouting their particular version of bigotry I speak up then too. You won't tend to see me do it on this board because there's not a large group of people here who aren't white middle class, and the ones who aren't white middle class don't tend to say much here about it.

See, this is a gun board. Not a white Judeo-Christian gun board, not a Muslim gun board, not a Hispanic gun board, not a GLBT gun board. I suspect if we stuck to our guns and avoided politics, most here would get along much better online methinks.

totally agree, but again, there is a big difference between a supremacist and someone wanting to live among their own, regardless of color.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Scared of book burnings.....?.....You all know it is in the bible right...?..you know, the story of christianity coming to a community, they gave their lives to Jesus, then gathered their pagan an such books an burned them.....if some one gave me a quran, I would burn it too...in fact 30 years ago after giving my life to Christ I had some evil things that pricked my conscience....I took them an burned them. I also already know that to all mankind I'm a nobody...but to Jesus, I'm somebody. I'm not bashing the OP, in fact I have to have some respect for a guy that says he isn't a christian, but a pagan. "Be either hot or cold, but if your lukewarm I will spit you out." Theirs is far more hope for the OP than some who claim "christianity" but have lost thier "saltiness"....which makes it worthless.

All those things may be true, but the question I have to ask myself, as a Christian, is "what purpose is burning the Koran serving?" Am I giving up my previously pagan ways? Am I re-committing my life to Christ after dabbling in Mohammedism? Or am I just expressing hatred for people who oppose me, when Christ calls on me to forgive and preach the Good News?

I contend that the public burning of the Koran doesn't do a thing to promote Christ to unbelievers; that it doesn't enhance the protection of other Christians throughout the world; and that it doesn't enhance the faith of those either witnessing the burning, or participating in the burning.

It has nothing to do with being "lukewarm" in faith. In my view, you can be a Christian and profess forgiveness to those who hate you; turn the other cheek and submit to being a slave or a martyr (which are your choices under Shariah Law), or you can resist the inroads of Shariah by supporting those who protect you from them and asking God's grace on them to kill whom they must; help whom they can; and hate no one in the doing of it.

 

[HICKMAN]

White nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I meant separatist, instead of nationalist.

I was in a hurry to get out and get to Scotty's for a burger

 

[Tomcat_AL200]

Solution, BAN ALL RELIGION

 

[JBusch8899]

It appears that the Dove World Outreach Center differs little from the Westboro Baptist Church.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.