Church Plans Quran Burning on Sept. 11th

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

I'm still not understanding how individuals equate all of one religion with terrorism.

However, to put it in perspective: If all of Islam necessarily = Al Qaeda, et al; ergo, Christianity must by definition = Ku Klux Klan.

There is a major misunderstanding here.

I do NOT think I am required to show you all the beauty that is Islam, the very real oppressive Society this religion creates, not only toward women, but also we can readily see, toward non-muslims.
It's not just a matter of terror, but if a single religion could be attributed with more terrorism, then Islam would definitely be it, historically.

Unlike other religions, like Christianity, Hindu, buddhism etc, Islam was bore out of absolutely hatred, evil and oppression.


Christianity, has throughout it's history done more good for humanity; while it has certainly done some unforgivable acts, I have no doubts it pales in comparison.

But to suggest Christianity equates to KKK is hardly a justification, and I fail to see the relevence other than bringing up a socially and politically shocking organization up, such as the KKK.
Perhaps to shock folks? To demonize Christianity?

As reported, it was indeed the Christians who brought attention to massive Islamic slave trades, and they are responsible for Islamic Nations slowing down this disgusting practice of slavery, that while it still exist, is not so prevelant.

I was going to refute them point by point, but it would do nothing but get you to stray further from my original premis, of which you never truely addressed. Your hypocricy, you claim to admire and want to learn from the Amish, yet you mock and disdain pascifism, which is of their primary tenants. Whether they would "accept" Islam has no bering on this discussion.
For typing so much, you say so very little.

Well, in situation where Peace is NOT AN OPTION, I do disdain such notions as it will lead to slavery in the end. I do not believe Christians were ever instructed to be this way, especially in situation which required they protect themselves.

Orge, why are you so instance on twisting my words? I can admire the Amish for many reasons, and none of those aspects has to do with anything regarding pascifism.

I do desire peace, but not at the hands of ever willfully endangering my descendants.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Last time I heard we are at war with "terrorism", Al Queada and the Taliban. Since when did we declare war on all Muslims?

You might not be waging war against them, but you better believe that they are most certainly, irrefutably, indisputably at war with you... and me. This nation of ours, with our freedoms and non-religious zealotry, and obedience to rule-of-law, and culture of egalitarianism between the sexes - basically all of what makes America truly America - these are all extremely offensive to all devout mussies, and not only is it offensive, but it is so disturbing and counter to their worldview that they truly do see it as a situation in which the town just ain't big enough for the both of us... and that's fine as far as it goes, save the fact that the town in this case is the entire world, and the outcome isn't some showdown at the O.K. corral with six-shooters or wheelguns, but rather, with dirty radiological bombs, nuclear devices, chemical and biological weapons, and is unyielding. There will be another terrorist attack in America at some point in future. Period. You cannot have safety in a free society, because safety means totalitarian control over EVERYONE, which is completely anti-thetical to the notion of our founding, despite our continual slide in that direction. So, it's going to happen. The only questions in my mind are: how bad will it be?; what will they use?; and how will we recover from their violence?

Asking WHO IS RESPONSIBLE? is the furthest thing from my mind, because I'd lay money on the answer: it will be muslims, or, for the very tricky liars who invoke lies to defend their savage religion and claim that those who commit violence are after-the-fact excommunicated from - and therefore not part of islam - people who claim to be muslim. Period.

I've said it before and I will ask it again, in vain or otherwise: if religions are all equal, where are the Tibetan Buddhist homicide bombers? Where are they? If all religions are equal in their propensity to induce violence in their followers, where the godsmack are the Jewish suicide bombers? The Christian suicide bombers? Where are they? They're not to be found, because they don't exist. In my opinion, they all make some grandiose, bizarre, unproveable and unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiable) claims about the nature of this universe, but NONE of them contain within their dogma that which one must be told to kill civilians and adherents of a different religion. Christianity and Judaism have gone through their bloody phases, yes, but they have distilled themselves into fractionally-violent versions of their former selves through the moderation of time and civilization. islam is completely unlikely to moderate itself for several reasons. foremost, whereas christian sects pick-and-choose from the Holy Bible as to what takes priority and what should be minimized or disregarded, the violent parts, for instance where Jesus of Nazareth asks that his enemies be brought before him and slain at his feet, are not embraced as wholly as the messages of peace, love and reconciliation. mussies embrace all of their text, as they believe it all to be verbatim the literal, inerrant word of their god, so, again completely in opposition to christianity, islam will not ever moderate itself into different versions of their holy book to appease the different sects of its religion.

islam is and will continue to be the most violent force on the planet. as i've said, I give quarter to no religion, but as a non-believer heathenistic piece of filth condemned to 'hell,' if i should choose to slaughter all religion, make no mistake and have no doubt... islam is the first, prime, and chief concern of mine.

 

[Woodrow]

If we examine the age and evolution of religion and belief systems in general, they do follow a similar path. Islam is now roughly 1400 years old. There is an undercurrent of violence coursing through much of the religion (and a complete focus on violence through a portion). Before making these comparisons between Christianity and Islam, it is important to bear in mind the development of the religion.
Let's begin with Charlemangne, who was crowned by Pope because the authority to rule was divined by popes. "To Christianize is to civilize," which meant if people don't submit to rule by Church, you destroy them. Anyone ever wonder what happened to the Saxons? The Christians raped them out of existence. When Christianity was 1200--1500 years old, Christians were an extremely violent, murderous bunch. Let's not forget, after the Great Schism when Eastern and Western Christians split, it was Christians who started the Crusades, and when those didn't pan out, the Western Christians simply attacked the Eastern Christians and sacked Constantinople. When possible, the Moors were captured and sold into slavery due to their different beliefs. The Crusades themselves represent one of the few times when Europeans weren't solely focused on killing one another in war--at one time, there were 3 popes and no one got along. When after a period of a few centuries, certain groups decided they didn't appreciate the idolatry and corruption they perceived in Catholicism, they Protested, attempted to reform the religion, and were often horribly tortured, punished, and beheaded for their differing beliefs. The Spanish Inquisition was a fine example of a dark time in the development of Modern Christianity. Religion was even used as a justification of slavery through the Nineteenth Century.

I'm not stupid, I understand that it is impossible to judge the actions and motivations of the past through the conscience of the Twenty-first Century, but it is worthy of investigation. I AM NOT CHRISTIAN BASHING. This is history. Islam is at the same point in it's evolution as Christianity at the height of violence. We must also remember that The majority of the Islamic world is barely 50 years out of the Stone Age. Yes, there are many modern conveniences now, but they are new and today's Post-Colonial country lines throughout the Middle East were drawn by the British with no regard for tribal boundaries. Islam has been adopted by these poorer local and melded into a bastardized version of tribal law.

Islam does breed violence, but before simply condemning, think about the historical and sociological background of this belief system.

 

[Woodrow]

My above post DOES NOT mean that we should turn away from a very obvious threat. Hell no, I'm all for the rod and preemptive strikes. I just think we should know our current enemy and attempt to understand some of the underlying reasons behind their motivations.

 

[Fletch]

... for instance where Jesus of Nazareth asks that his enemies be brought before him and slain at his feet...

WTF?

 

[ATOMonkey]

I'm gonna go on record and say this book burning thing is a stupid idea.

Resume thread.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
the violent parts, for instance where Jesus of Nazareth asks that his enemies be brought before him and slain at his feet, snip

I seem to have missed that part in reading the Bible. Could you tell me where that is found?

 

[Woodrow]

I seem to have missed that part in reading the Bible. Could you tell me where that is found?

I think it's somewhere in the back...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

WTF?

Luke 19:27, IIRC.

 

[Woodrow]

Luke 19:27, IIRC.

After that last post, Jesus wept...with laughter.

 

[Fletch]

Luke 19:27, IIRC.

Wow, epic fail. Jesus is not saying this about Himself. He's telling a story and this is part of the dialogue. Jesus is generally not the main character in the stories He told; they are illustrative of a particular point He wanted to communicate. In this case, He's telling people that they are not to waste the gifts that God has given them, but to use them for God's glory.

There's evidence that the wealthy ruler in the story is a metaphoric reference to a historical event that the audience would have recognized -- the Roman governor Herod Archelaus having 3000 of those who opposed him slaughtered.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Wow, epic fail. Jesus is not saying this about Himself. He's telling a story and this is part of the dialogue. Jesus is generally not the main character in the stories He told; they are illustrative of a particular point He wanted to communicate. In this case, He's telling people that they are not to waste the gifts that God has given them, but to use them for God's glory.

There's evidence that the wealthy ruler in the story is a metaphoric reference to a historical event that the audience would have recognized -- the Roman governor Herod Archelaus having 3000 of those who opposed him slaughtered.

I understand the concept of a parable.

The fact remains, he's using slaughter of a warring tribe to make his point.

And yes, Herod had big balls.

 

[Fletch]

I understand the concept of a parable.

The fact remains, he's using slaughter of a warring tribe to make his point.

This was not your original statement. You said Jesus asked for Jesus' enemies to be brought before Jesus and slaughtered at Jesus' feet:

Jesus of Nazareth asks that his enemies be brought before him and slain at his feet

Now you claim to understand the concept of a parable, when clearly you didn't in the original post. Either that, or you need to brush up on how pronouns work.

 

[rambone]

And yes, Herod had big balls.

Do you say that about all mass-murderers and dictators?


This thread fails so hard.

 

[nawainwright]

Do you say that about all mass-murderers and dictators?


This thread fails so hard.

Agreed

 

[Expat]

Evangelical Leaders Pan Qur'an Burn Plan | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

"I think it is appalling, disgusting, and brainless," said Richard Land, director of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. "I think that those of us who find what they are doing abhorrent should say so, and say so publicly and often."

 

[nawainwright]

If we examine the age and evolution of religion and belief systems in general, they do follow a similar path. Islam is now roughly 1400 years old. There is an undercurrent of violence coursing through much of the religion (and a complete focus on violence through a portion). Before making these comparisons between Christianity and Islam, it is important to bear in mind the development of the religion.
Let's begin with Charlemangne, who was crowned by Pope because the authority to rule was divined by popes. "To Christianize is to civilize," which meant if people don't submit to rule by Church, you destroy them. Anyone ever wonder what happened to the Saxons? The Christians raped them out of existence. When Christianity was 1200--1500 years old, Christians were an extremely violent, murderous bunch. Let's not forget, after the Great Schism when Eastern and Western Christians split, it was Christians who started the Crusades, and when those didn't pan out, the Western Christians simply attacked the Eastern Christians and sacked Constantinople. When possible, the Moors were captured and sold into slavery due to their different beliefs. The Crusades themselves represent one of the few times when Europeans weren't solely focused on killing one another in war--at one time, there were 3 popes and no one got along. When after a period of a few centuries, certain groups decided they didn't appreciate the idolatry and corruption they perceived in Catholicism, they Protested, attempted to reform the religion, and were often horribly tortured, punished, and beheaded for their differing beliefs. The Spanish Inquisition was a fine example of a dark time in the development of Modern Christianity. Religion was even used as a justification of slavery through the Nineteenth Century.

I'm not stupid, I understand that it is impossible to judge the actions and motivations of the past through the conscience of the Twenty-first Century, but it is worthy of investigation. I AM NOT CHRISTIAN BASHING. This is history. Islam is at the same point in it's evolution as Christianity at the height of violence. We must also remember that The majority of the Islamic world is barely 50 years out of the Stone Age. Yes, there are many modern conveniences now, but they are new and today's Post-Colonial country lines throughout the Middle East were drawn by the British with no regard for tribal boundaries. Islam has been adopted by these poorer local and melded into a bastardized version of tribal law.

Islam does breed violence, but before simply condemning, think about the historical and sociological background of this belief system.

Okay, we need to make a SIGNIFICANT distinction here! The politicians who corrupted Christianity are the ones who induced the weak-willed and weak-minded "zealots" for political and financial gain. They took people who just wanted to be part of something great (much as everyday Germans joined in Nazi atrocities) and used them to further their agenda through violence.

Christianity at its inception was not a belief system of violence. The first infusion of violence in Christianity was when Constantine fused the religion, with his political system. If you are going to argue that Islam EVER had a peaceful period in its existence, you are going to be sorely disappointed. If you want to play the "lets compare" game maybe you should really read the history as opposed to regurgitating what your socialistic atheist teachers told you.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I have to say, after reading this entire thread... and I mean the ENTIRE thread... I have a few things to say not only as a Christian, but as an American Soldier and as a citizen.

The moment we degrade another person, another faith, another country in the same fashion they attempt to degrade us, we become no better than them. Burning their texts, while they may be "just a frickin' piece of paper" to us, they have sentimental and emotional value to those who hold it dear. Terrorists mean to break us down at the very core, making us feel like we are hopeless, helpless, and defenseless... which is the very thing we defend against. If you do what you defend against, how much good are you REALLY doing?

We, as Christians, hold faith in High regard, as a Sacred thing. There's a reason we don't conduct raids and during Muslim call to prayer in our Theater or Operations. As stated above, we hold our own faith with high regard. We would not want to be attacked during our time of prayer, so we do not attack. It is a sign of respect.

We are not to judge. In John 12:47, Jesus said "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it." He also said in Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

We are not to hate, but love. John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

Notice that he didn't say other Jews.. or other Gentiles... or other Muslims, or anything like that. He said one another. Everyone. All people.

It's a pity Christians would think any other way. Jesus taught you better.

Live your teachings. Don't just preach them. Leading by example does volumes for your walk as an example, and for your own growth.

Draw the line in the sand if someone threatens you. If they crosses it, hit them with the fist of an angry God not out of hate, but out of principle.

The moment you lose control of your emotions, you lose.

 

[JBusch8899]

There is a major misunderstanding here.

I do NOT think I am required to show you all the beauty that is Islam, the very real oppressive Society this religion creates, not only toward women, but also we can readily see, toward non-muslims. It's not just a matter of terror, but if a single religion could be attributed with more terrorism, then Islam would definitely be it, historically.

Unlike other religions, like Christianity, Hindu, buddhism etc, Islam was bore out of absolutely hatred, evil and oppression.

Christianity, has throughout it's history done more good for humanity; while it has certainly done some unforgivable acts, I have no doubts it pales in comparison.

But to suggest Christianity equates to KKK is hardly a justification, and I fail to see the relevence other than bringing up a socially and politically shocking organization up, such as the KKK. Perhaps to shock folks? To demonize Christianity?

As reported, it was indeed the Christians who brought attention to massive Islamic slave trades, and they are responsible for Islamic Nations slowing down this disgusting practice of slavery, that while it still exist, is not so prevelant.

I believe that the argument has its merits, but rather subjective in nature. My commentary was to contrast a familiar example, to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the commentary being strewn upon this thread.

To paint Islam as a whole, based upon the acts of humanistic perversion of God's word, is unfair at best.

Christianity, and in particular, the Roman Catholic Church has been complicit in a whole number of undesirable matters, but nobody on this board labels all Christians and/or Roman Catholics as hate mongering wackos, bent upon the conflagration of the world.

Religion, while a common denominator among the people committing such atrocities, aren't the cause. A culture of corruption among those who espouse, or otherwise are follow such hatred, is.

 

[Woodrow]

If you want to play the "lets compare" game maybe you should really read the history as opposed to regurgitating what your socialistic atheist teachers told you.

Why so defensive?

Because I make an objective observation about history I must have been brainwashed by socialistic atheists? Don't presume to know my background. I have never had anyone make this comparison to me, it's just something I have found interesting. I didn't attack anyone. I'm not questioning your god, motivations, or faith.