Asked to leave for OC

[Caleb]

Stealing a quote from Tattoo'd people..

The only difference between OCers and CCers is that OCers don't care if you CC.

True...

 

[Spazzmodicus]

Spazz, you've been here over a year, so I'm going to assume you've seen the threads. The problem I'm seeing is that you're bringing up the same points (again).

Wrong assumption. Most of my posts have been in the classifieds. I simply don't have the time to spend hours catching up by reading old threads.

1. OCing will make you the primary target.
2. People OCing are trying to look like a badass.
3. People OCing are looking for confrontations.

Time and time again, this forum's OCers have stood up to these points. Go find proof that OCing makes you a target. Is that why cops are killed all the time, because they OC? I don't think so. A big ego? Let's not confuse an ego with self-confidence. If anything, I tend to be more humble and polite when I OC (and so do many other here, by their own words). Finally, does anyone really go looking for confrontation, with the public, cops, anyone? Overwhelmingly not. But, there has to be movement in order for carrying a gun in general to be more accepted. You say that you don't care what people think, but you should.

I've been very specific about who my anti-OC comments applied to. The tactical stuff applies across the board. If you're of the frame of mind that there's nothing tactically wrong with OC then more power to you. It's insane in my books. I'm not here to prove anything, but simply explain my perspective. Love it, hate it, accept it, reject it. Your prerogative. WHere exactly did I say that I don't care what anybody thinks? Are you generalizing a contextual point I was making? What I do not care about is the plethora of conversations that have taken place on this board in the past. That was then. I live in the 'now' and with a limited amount of time. If you guys have plenty of time to sit on your butt all day and gabb on the computer, OK.....that's fine, but don't expect me to go back and read what you've spent years gabbing about.

How is the perception different between a schmoe OCing and the plain clothes copper OCing? My neighbor is a member of IMPD. He does not wear his uniform to court, so he frequently walks around in Dockers and a polo shirt with a G27 on his belt. If he and I were standing next to each other, and one didn't see the badge next to his gun, there would be no way to tell which one of us was the cop. But you are asserting that I am hurting rather than helping our image?

The way to change perception, and thereby behavior, is repetition. Think about this. The first time ATM (in all his OC glory) went into the quik-e-mart to get a soda, the clerk's pucker factor probably went up a few notches. Now, 2000 sodas (and Open Carries) later, that clerk knows ATM and has no worries about the XDm on his hip. It's probably to the point now that he is able to reassure other employees that Mr. M is not there to rob them, but is just getting his Dr. Pepper fix.

Now, did ATM go into that quik-e-mart to spook the poor guy behind the counter, or to drum up some debate on the 2A? Hell no, he went for high fructose corn syrup and caffeine. The presence (and visibility) of his firearm were not, and still are not, germane to the transaction.

If you would have actually read what I said then you would know that it was folks like ATM that were excluded from my 'rant'. The second example of ATM is who my position was directed at.

The tactical stuff still applies in my opinion but if ATM or anybody has been fine OC'ing for years with no problems, then great, I couldn't be any happier. OC is a tactical disadvantage in my opinion and nobody's opinion will sway my mind on that. Not gonna' dredge up any statistics. Not gonna' prove anything. If the absence of proof is enough to convince an OC'er that OC is perfectly safe, the OC by all means.

Other than that indytechnerd, try reading what I actually said.

 

[indytechnerd]

Wrong assumption. Most of my posts have been in the classifieds. I simply don't have the time to spend hours catching up by reading old threads.




I've been very specific about who my anti-OC comments applied to. The tactical stuff applies across the board. If you're of the frame of mind that there's nothing tactically wrong with OC then more power to you. It's insane in my books. I'm not here to prove anything, but simply explain my perspective. Love it, hate it, accept it, reject it. Your prerogative. WHere exactly did I say that I don't care what anybody thinks? Are you generalizing a contextual point I was making? What I do not care about is the plethora of conversations that have taken place on this board in the past. That was then. I live in the 'now' and with a limited amount of time. If you guys have plenty of time to sit on your butt all day and gabb on the computer, OK.....that's fine, but don't expect me to go back and read what you've spent years gabbing about.




If you would have actually read what I said then you would know that it was folks like ATM that were excluded from my 'rant'. The second example of ATM is who my position was directed at.

The tactical stuff still applies in my opinion but if ATM or anybody has been fine OC'ing for years with no problems, then great, I couldn't be any happier. OC is a tactical disadvantage in my opinion and nobody's opinion will sway my mind on that. Not gonna' dredge up any statistics. Not gonna' prove anything. If the absence of proof is enough to convince an OC'er that OC is perfectly safe, the OC by all means.

Other than that indytechnerd, try reading what I actually said.

I have nothing else to add to this.

 

[rhino]

I got a c-note on the first person that wears an exposed thong and a t-shirt at a Kroger.
(Must, actually, enter the store and attempt to purchase something)

Any takers?

Will you pay for the thong in my size?

 

[Spazzmodicus]

I have nothing else to add to this.

I honestly didn't expect you would.

 

[MikeDVB]

1. There will always be public idiots that will never be placated, educated, informed or conducive to the purposes of [anything intelligent]. They likely well outnumber the [intelligent people] and probably will for some time to come. [Being intelligent] is also my God-given right. That is my choice. Do you mind telling me why my preference for my God-given right is wrong?

FTFY and Nope.

 

[Roadie]

I honestly didn't expect you would.

Why would he further debate with you?
You all but stated that facts mean less to you than your opinion..

 

[jeremy]

People who CC are cowardly little bastages...

 

[cbseniour]

Kroger and Speedway

I left the range about 3PM at Atterbury and was carrying my new Ruger LCR, stopped for gas at the Speedway in Franklin then at the Kroger at Worthville RD in Greenwood to get makings for tonight's pizza.

Carried open the whole time, my wife with me and no one even raised an eyebrow.

guess I just look harmless.

 

[Stschil]

People who CC are cowardly little bastages...

 

[Relatively Ninja]

I'm not going to get into a big internet argument, but I would like to point out a couple of fallacies in Spazzmodicus's argument. First of all, OC'ing can and will change peoples' opinion on gun ownership. I've seen it first hand with my own mother; when I first started carrying she was very against guns. After I talked to her about them (a conversation which came about because I was OC'ing) she started to realize that people who carry are only doing so for the safety of themselves and those around them. Open carrying let her know that I was armed all the time, and helped her to understand that carrying a weapon doesn't make you a scary bad guy.

Second, a civilian's use of force is in no way related to military tactics. At all. CC'ing is nothing like being a Green Beret. Green Berets are actively seeking out and destroying enemies, while citizens are only allowed to respond to an enemy that threatens them first. By your analogy, OC'ing is when criminals and innocent citizens line up and start shooting at each other on the street. CC'ing would be citizens sneaking around, actively pursuing criminals and shooting them when they are distracted.

Furthermore, a "career criminal" is more likely to avoid someone who is open carrying. If they've been a criminal long enough to make it a career then they will understand that armed citizens are more dangerous targets that unarmed citizens.

I understand not having the time to sit around sifting through all the old threads on INGO. I highly recommend taking a look at this thread, which I have conveniently dug up for you (at least the first post). It has a lot of facts about crime, criminals, and carrying that will hopefully clear up some of your misconceptions about carrying. https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/71996-the_open_carry_argument.html

And last but not least, I really really have a problem with this quote:

There will always be public idiots that will never be placated, educated, informed or conducive to the purposes of an OC'er.... While you're 'desensitizing' the public by OC'ing, they're getting hyper-sensitized by the liberal media and neighborhood crime reports.

You seem to imply that because there are people that will never be able to see something from my point of view that I should never do it. The bully wouldn't understand why I would speak up for the little guy, so I should just keep my mouth shut and move along. This is so... wrong, so... un-American that I keep telling myself I must have misunderstood you. You don't just shut up and move along because of the idiots; there will always be idiots. You do what is right because it is right. A great American once said...

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — 'No, you move.'"
-Captain America

 

[Caleb]

Relatively ninja, INGO won't allow me to rep you at this time otherwise I would.

 

[Stschil]

Relatively ninja, INGO won't allow me to rep you at this time otherwise I would.

Consider him repped!

 

[youngda9]

Consider him repped!

X2

 

[MikeDVB]

Consider him repped!

X3

 

[eldirector]

Very well said, Mr. Ninja. Very well said.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

I'm not going to get into a big internet argument, but I would like to point out a couple of fallacies in Spazzmodicus's argument.

What? You can't respond directly to me? This has all the makings of some sort of kangaroo court. Are you guys all in a gang? (lower members of the gang: please go look up "kangaroo court" so you are not left out of this conversation. Thank you.) You might even get a rep from one of your gang-mates for doing so......heh heh.

First of all, OC'ing can and will change peoples' opinion on gun ownership. I've seen it first hand with my own mother; when I first started carrying she was very against guns. After I talked to her about them (a conversation which came about because I was OC'ing) she started to realize that people who carry are only doing so for the safety of themselves and those around them. Open carrying let her know that I was armed all the time, and helped her to understand that carrying a weapon doesn't make you a scary bad guy.

I would have to say your stellar example is a bit biased. She's your mother for crying out loud. There's murderers sitting on death row right now that have the full support of their mothers even after having abused their gun rights. You get no reps from me for this point.

Second, a civilian's use of force is in no way related to military tactics. At all. CC'ing is nothing like being a Green Beret. Green Berets are actively seeking out and destroying enemies, while citizens are only allowed to respond to an enemy that threatens them first. By your analogy, OC'ing is when criminals and innocent citizens line up and start shooting at each other on the street. CC'ing would be citizens sneaking around, actively pursuing criminals and shooting them when they are distracted.

No, that's not how I expressed my examples at all. OC'ers are no different from the Redcoats, who didn't use the most brilliant strategy. I said nothing about how OC'ers use their weapons. Perhaps your limited perspective only allowed you to see what I was saying in a firefight scenario or something. My point with the comparison is that OC'ers are like Redcoats. They have no tactical superiority compared to CC'ers, i.e. the Green Beret.

You're example of CC'ers above is as about as warped as well. In both examples you cite people shooting other people. What about the use of firearms as a *DETERRENT*? If firearms are used correctly, no shots are fired and bad guys go to jail. All you've done with your example is proven what many CC'ers say about OC'ers: A cowboy with a gun that can't wait to shoot somebody. Anybody...doesn't matter who gets shot as long as you get to shoot somebody. You get no reps from me for this really crooked argument either.

Furthermore, a "career criminal" is more likely to avoid someone who is open carrying. If they've been a criminal long enough to make it a career then they will understand that armed citizens are more dangerous targets that unarmed citizens.

I couldn't agree more. That's why most career criminals CC and scope out the environment. When they have the advantage, they're yank their firearm and likely eliminate the cowboy OC'er when he least expects it. Are you scanning every individual in your periphery while out in public? Are you doing this while checking prices too or otherwise focusing your attention on inanimate objects? Scary! What about the unarmed felon that is feigning shopping or whatever activity is relative to your environment, whom is quite intent on taking your gun while you're checking the prices on panty hose? Heh heh. OC'ers are a walking target of various sorts whether they want to admit it or not. Even if only theoretically at this time.

When times get harder, and they will, you guys will find yourselves in more altercations than you can shake a stick at. All your empirical knowledge is based on 'current' data and times. When the paradigm shifts into higher gear in the near future, you will not only be a target for anybody needing a gun, but also for the government and it's elements. The constitution is still somewhat relevant for the moment but not for much longer. THEN we will see where all the OC'ers are. It's sad and not at all surprising that OC'ers don't have the foresight to see this.

At any rate, your point above doesn't make me feel any safer. No reps from me for this example either.

I understand not having the time to sit around sifting through all the old threads on INGO. I highly recommend taking a look at this thread, which I have conveniently dug up for you (at least the first post). It has a lot of facts about crime, criminals, and carrying that will hopefully clear up some of your misconceptions about carrying. https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/71996-the_open_carry_argument.html

Thanks but no thanks. You guys gang up on anybody that oppose your OC view. I simply pointed out why CC'ing was best for me and explained from my perspective why OC'ing was not. True, false, riddled with fallacies or otherwise it's the perspective I live with. And for this you guys always say the same thing: He's attacking OC'ing. Why would I want to read anything provided by a bunch of guys incapable of intelligent mature dialoge? (not all but many)

You guys are are as giddy as a bunch of school girls and passing 'rep' around like venereal disease, on the verge of having a virtual orgy here. My arguments have been twisted out of context, words put into my mouth, and you yourself elicit images people shooting each other that I in no way inferred. I never said anything about people in modern times shooting each other in gunfights. That's your latent desires being manifested. That particular conversation was about the tactical advantages/disadvantages between OC vs. CC again *FROM MY PERSPECTIVE*. With you and friends exhibiting juvenile behavior, please explain to me why I would want to read more of the same?

I HAVE done reading and research. This has led me to my decision and I'm quite comfortable with my decision to CC. Look at some of the remarks by your OC buddies in this thread. Not exactly exemplifying the soberness of mind and maturity one would hope an OC'er should possess. I'll go ahead and cut this short by also not handing out any reps to you at this point.

And last but not least, I really really have a problem with this quote: You seem to imply that because there are people that will never be able to see something from my point of view that I should never do it. The bully wouldn't understand why I would speak up for the little guy, so I should just keep my mouth shut and move along. This is so... wrong, so... un-American that I keep telling myself I must have misunderstood you. You don't just shut up and move along because of the idiots; there will always be idiots. You do what is right because it is right. A great American once said... [snipped example of fictitious character]

A wonderful example of taking out of context and twisting what I said to fit your point at the moment. My point about placating idiots and such was made within the context of OC'ers being "small in numbers". Sure you're educating one person at a time and may be doing an excellent job at it, but that's just you. What about the other 10, 20 100 yahoo's out there that get out in all their chivalrous OC glory and behaving like an AMWAG? (angry man with a gun) No reps from me.

Anybody else want to twist out of context my arguments, cite me for saying something I didn't, edit my writing and add one-liner pot shots to rather than working their brain cells hard enough to form their own coherent paragraphs? Have at it. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your....um....perspectives.....heh heh.

 

[ATM]

...Anybody else want to twist ...my ...um....perspectives.....heh heh.

Of course not.

 

[jeremy]

I like how CC'ers are always much more intelligent than OC'ers...

 

[jeremy]

Anybody else want to twist out of context my arguments, cite me for saying something I didn't, edit my writing and add one-liner pot shots to rather than working their brain cells hard enough to form their own coherent paragraphs? Have at it. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your....um....perspectives.....heh heh.

Nope, you are doing a pretty good job of making yourself seem like an ignorant juvenile all on your own...