"Are you kidding me?" / Facepalm Thread (pt 2)

[ArcadiaGP]

Cops order man (Elijah James Smith) to remove his hand from his pocket. He follows their instructions, which they perceive as a threat. So they kill him.

Video in link.

Utah Man Shot and Killed While Complying with Police Commands to Show His Hands

 

[actaeon277]

Cops order man (Elijah James Smith) to remove his hand from his pocket. He follows their instructions, which they perceive as a threat. So they kill him.

Video in link.

Utah Man Shot and Killed While Complying with Police Commands to Show His Hands

And another place showed 3 views.
He was in someone else's garage, the owners kids were hiding and scared.
The "perp" (or whatever we call him) raised ONE hand while trying to walk away.
Maybe, just maybe, don't be in someone else's garage after committing a crime, and also maybe comply.

 

[actaeon277]

Elijah James Smith: Police Video Shows Utah Intruder Shot Dead By Officer In Family Garage

Investigators have said Smith was found to have had a "modified" screwdriver in his pocket. The screwdriver, they said, had been modified to look like something else, though they have not expanded on what it was made to look like.

"From the time the officers opened the garage door until the shots were fired was approximately 24 seconds. They told him 15 times in those 24 seconds to show them his hands and to come out from hiding.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

And another place showed 3 views.
He was in someone else's garage, the owners kids were hiding and scared.
The "perp" (or whatever we call him) raised ONE hand while trying to walk away.
Maybe, just maybe, don't be in someone else's garage after committing a crime, and also maybe comply.

I don't like seeing this reasoning for someone being shot and killed. People make very poor decisions... There shouldn't be a point of no return in which their compliance means death.

He did what he was told during this moment. He complied, and was shot anyway. All the lead-up to that? Meaningless.

 

[actaeon277]

I don't like seeing this reasoning for someone being shot and killed. People make very poor decisions... There shouldn't be a point of no return in which their compliance means death.

He did what he was told during this moment. He complied, and was shot anyway. All the lead-up to that? Meaningless.

He complied.. eventually.. with a screwdriver.

And it's easy for us to sit here in a room, typing on the computer, watching a video, where we have all the time in the world, and no danger.

 

[actaeon277]

I don't like seeing this reasoning for someone being shot and killed. People make very poor decisions... There shouldn't be a point of no return in which their compliance means death.

He did what he was told during this moment. He complied, and was shot anyway. All the lead-up to that? Meaningless.

Poor decisions at work have kill people where I work all the time. Also gets them sent to the hospital with amputations or burns.

 

[actaeon277]

Do I think it could have gone better?
Yes I do.

I am also sitting her in a warm room, looking at a computer screen, with time, and no danger. Tends to make my perspective a little different than the guy that's there wondering why the idiot has ONE hand STILL in the pocket.

 

[EPeter213]

From my perspective, I think the guy would have been shot regardless of skin color. That quick-flip and jerk looked an awful lot like someone trying to clear a fire-arm.

 

[BugI02]

I don't like seeing this reasoning for someone being shot and killed. People make very poor decisions... There shouldn't be a point of no return in which their compliance means death.

He did what he was told during this moment. He complied, and was shot anyway. All the lead-up to that? Meaningless.

Au contraire. I am not a professional. If I encounter you (or anyone) on my property where you have no business being, depending on the exact circumstances, you may get one chance to do exactly what I tell you to do.

If you attempt to close the distance between us, or otherwise move rapidly and with unclear intent, you will wind up dead. When I first encounter you where you do not belong, there are a subset of circumstances wherein you wind up dead no matter what

I do not wish to kill. I do not wish to be killed.

 

[jamil]

I don't like seeing this reasoning for someone being shot and killed. People make very poor decisions... There shouldn't be a point of no return in which their compliance means death.

He did what he was told during this moment. He complied, and was shot anyway. All the lead-up to that? Meaningless.

Both sides can be in the wrong. Don’t steal **** and get chased by police, and maybe you won’t have amped up cops shoot at you. And don’t get so amped up that you barely give the guy time to comply before shooting. But the person most in control of that situation was the thief. Cops should have reacted better. But the dude could have reacted better too.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Poor decisions at work have kill people where I work all the time. Also gets them sent to the hospital with amputations or burns.

Exactly; that young man purposefully put himself into a situation that led to him being at risk of dying. To question whether or not he deserved to die for his crime is unfair to the police officers, because by doing so, you accuse the police officers of having made that decision. They weren't there meting out justice, they were there protecting and serving, and trying to stay alive in the process.

I do not wish to kill. I do not wish to be killed.

......AND, guess which side of that equation on which I plan to err if I can help it.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Both sides can be in the wrong. Don’t steal **** and get chased by police, and maybe you won’t have amped up cops shoot at you. And don’t get so amped up that you barely give the guy time to comply before shooting. But the person most in control of that situation was the thief.

Okay, so along that line of thought, what should the thief have done? Let's play it out:

I made very poor decisions. I don't want to die. I'm ready to give myself up so I can get out of this alive. What do I do? Well, I should start by listening and doing what I'm told by the cops.

*bang*

That didn't work out for me. That blame is on the cops that responded poorly to their own demands. It seems like... when the thief decided to give up... he did the right things. He did what he was told to do by the "good guy with a gun".

Obviously, don't break into places and steal ****. This shouldn't be a death sentence though (with regards to being approached by police. Civilians in said places are another story.)
Obviously, don't shoot people that are listening and complying with your demands.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Obviously, don't shoot people that are listening and complying with your demands.

Obviously, I agree with you. But that man didn't comply with their demands. He knew the cops were there well before they made it to the garage, and when they did come into the garage, he didn't put his hands up at first, then put one hand in the air while turning to the side and then appeared to pull an object out with his other hand, which caused the officers to shoot. Police officers who don't fire quickly when they see a bad guy make the moves that young man made put their own lives in grave danger (in my un-educated opinion).

The long and the short of it is that the man purposefully put himself in the situation in the first place, and then had ample opportunity to make it out alive, but chose poorly.

The man shouldn't have gotten the death penalty for burglary, and he didn't.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Police officers who don't fire quickly when they see a bad guy make the moves that young man made put their own lives in grave danger (in my un-educated opinion).

I don't disagree with this, cops need to take their own safety very seriously. I think the command the cop chose was a poor one. Perhaps "lie on the ground" or "turn around" would have been a better first thing to say.

The long and the short of it is that the man purposefully put himself in the situation in the first place, and then had ample opportunity to make it out alive, but chose poorly.

Cart and horse, this isn't how it works. There should not be a point of no return. His initial choices were all bad, but he was still alive. That should never have changed.

High tensions and stress is probably why this ended up how it did. I can't relate to what a cop is going through in these situations, and I can't even necessarily blame the cop 100% for this... but it could and should have ended differently... and I think there's slightly more onus on the cop for it ending how it did.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Cart and horse, this isn't how it works. There should not be a point of no return. His initial choices were all bad, but he was still alive. That should never have changed.

High tensions and stress is probably why this ended up how it did. I can't relate to what a cop is going through in these situations, and I can't even necessarily blame the cop 100% for this... but it could and should have ended differently... and I think there's slightly more onus on the cop for it ending how it did.

I guess I perceive it differently. I would think that the officers begin assessing the situation from the start, gathering information as they go, watching for important ques from the suspect in order to best determine what threat he may present. Also, I firmly believe that a person who has committed a crime, or is in the process of committing a crime, puts himself in the position of being at risk of injury or death when apprehended by police. To that extent, the man who got shot should not (in my mind) be guaranteed the same consideration of safety while interacting with police as would a law-abiding citizen.

 

[printcraft]

Obviously, I agree with you. But that man didn't comply with their demands. He knew the cops were there well before they made it to the garage, and when they did come into the garage, he didn't put his hands up at first, then put one hand in the air while turning to the side and then appeared to pull an object out with his other hand, which caused the officers to shoot. Police officers who don't fire quickly when they see a bad guy make the moves that young man made put their own lives in grave danger (in my un-educated opinion).

The long and the short of it is that the man purposefully put himself in the situation in the first place, and then had ample opportunity to make it out alive, but chose poorly.

The man shouldn't have gotten the death penalty for burglary, and he didn't.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I know a sure fire way this entire situation could have been avoided... I'm speaking from experience here.

 

[jamil]

Okay, so along that line of thought, what should the thief have done? Let's play it out:

I made very poor decisions. I don't want to die. I'm ready to give myself up so I can get out of this alive. What do I do? Well, I should start by listening and doing what I'm told by the cops.

*bang*

That didn't work out for me. That blame is on the cops that responded poorly to their own demands. It seems like... when the thief decided to give up... he did the right things. He did what he was told to do by the "good guy with a gun".

Obviously, don't break into places and steal ****. This shouldn't be a death sentence though (with regards to being approached by police. Civilians in said places are another story.)
Obviously, don't shoot people that are listening and complying with your demands.

Like I said. The parties involved can both share blame.

But at what point has your very poor decisions made it too probable that things will turn out bad for you? He made a long series of mistakes in circumstances where men with guns are chasing him. Okay, so let's play it out up to the garage scene. Now that he's cornered and there's no way out, what's next? Walk around as if you belong there? You're not fooling anyone at that point. And why make the cops tell you where your hands should be? You hear them coming. Having your hands in your pockets when they get there is a really bad idea. You're cooked at that point. Just accept that you're going to jail and drop your ****. Get your hands out of your pockets and hold them out so the cops can see them when they bust through the door.

He can't control whatever prejudices the cops might have towards him. But to a very large extent, he can control the extent to which he projects himself as a threat. Don't act like you're a threat and it's harder for people to assume you are. Leave no doubt. If I'm in that garage, I hear the cops coming. There's no way out. It's over. I'm showing them every posture that says to the cops, I'm giving up. You got me.

I am not saying he deserved the consequence he got, or that it was in any way a justified shooting. C'mon. The dude barely got his hand out of his pocket before the cop fired. It's like he was just triggering off of adrenaline and the first glimpse of anything in that kid's hands.

I'm not sure what's going to stop these things from happening. Maybe training police differently. I don't know. But maybe they should add classes in high school for how to give up to the police. Because in many of these situations, they just don't seem to have that sense for how not to get shot by trigger-eager cops.

 

[BugI02]

I don't disagree with this, cops need to take their own safety very seriously. I think the command the cop chose was a poor one. Perhaps "lie on the ground" or "turn around" would have been a better first thing to say.



Cart and horse, this isn't how it works. There should not be a point of no return. His initial choices were all bad, but he was still alive. That should never have changed.

High tensions and stress is probably why this ended up how it did. I can't relate to what a cop is going through in these situations, and I can't even necessarily blame the cop 100% for this... but it could and should have ended differently... and I think there's slightly more onus on the cop for it ending how it did.

Sigh. What next? That they should have shot to wound him?

The assertion that there " ... should not be a point of no return." is loose and shoddy thinking. Perhaps you should reconsider

 

[jamil]

Sigh. What next? That they should have shot to wound him?

The assertion that there " ... should not be a point of no return." is loose and shoddy thinking. Perhaps you should reconsider

I think there's a way for cops to handle that situation where the guy doesn't wind up dead.

 

[Cameramonkey]

There a not a point of no return. However the further down the rabbit hole you get, the harder it is to get out alive, unfortunately. (My furtive/obscure movement is less likely to get me shot at the beginning of the interaction then later after I have repeatedly done things to make life harder for all)