Are Armscor 1911s the REAL 1911 over others available?

[ghitch75]

The Rock Island/Armscor is closer to what John Browning designed, internally.

The Rock Island stands on its rear lugs. When the military switched from the 1911 to the 1911a1, they did away with standing on the rear lugs and began counting on the link to both unlock and lock the barrel, which is a really good way to make it fail in about 5000 rounds and shear the top lugs off the barrel.

Too, the new radius the barrel followed to lock up was not correct, and started the three-point jam thing.

Rock Island stayed true to the original design, internally. Externally it's an a1, almost, but internally it's the original Browning design, not a redesign the military did to easily swap parts among pistols.

Kimber and most custom 1911 pistols stand on the lower lugs as is proper, but most mass-produced 1911 pistols do not, though that may be changing.

you mean " standing on the rear lugs" as the lowers riding on the slide stop pin?

 

[Wabatuckian]

you mean " standing on the rear lugs" as the lowers riding on the slide stop pin?

Yes, the original 1911 system has the barrel riding the lower lug into battery. The a1 system has it riding the link into battery, which can cause problems as it's a steeper angle.

If lugs are not tuned properly, they will develop lug bump (flat spots) that cause the barrel and and slide and all to slow down right as the round begins to enter the chamber.

This was mine. It occurred as I was pursuing tighter lockup with a slightly larger diameter pin than comes stock on Rock Islands.

The fix is to recontour to the proper diameter -- hand fit, if you will:

Just takes some contact fluid or a sharpie, smithing stones, and some time.

When standing on the rear lugs, their should properly (according to be bluprint spec) be a couple thousandths of an inch between the lug and the cross pin. This is why you can push the barrel hood down just a little bit when fully in battery.

I am not sure why JMB did it like this. I *think* it's to keep lugs from wearing it at too high of a speed. That initial rearward movement from the exploding shell is pretty doggone fast. But, I do not know for sure and therefore state this as conjecture only.

I've been looking through Google images for 1911a1 rear lugs with links for comparison purposes to post here, but it looks like the majority are on barrels for sale and the link is folded up out of the way on dang near all of them so that one cannot tell for sure whether they stand on the lugs or the links -- which probably means they stand on the links.

 

[churchmouse]

I can not push the hood down at all when in battery. Learn everyday.

 

[KG1]

The Rock Island/Armscor is closer to what John Browning designed, internally.

The Rock Island stands on its rear lugs. When the military switched from the 1911 to the 1911a1, they did away with standing on the rear lugs and began counting on the link to both unlock and lock the barrel, which is a really good way to make it fail in about 5000 rounds and shear the top lugs off the barrel.

Too, the new radius the barrel followed to lock up was not correct, and started the three-point jam thing.

Rock Island stayed true to the original design, internally. Externally it's an a1, almost, but internally it's the original Browning design, not a redesign the military did to easily swap parts among pistols.

Kimber and most custom 1911 pistols stand on the lower lugs as is proper, but most mass-produced 1911 pistols do not, though that may be changing.

So what you're saying is that RIA gets it right as far as deciding to stay true to the original JM Browning internal design.

It's the rest of their choices that are not conducive with those of a quality 1911 according to some.

 

[philbert001]

So what you're saying is that RIA gets it right as far as deciding to stay true to the original JM Browning internal design.

It's the rest of their choices that are not conducive with those of a quality 1911 according to some.

Perhaps all RIA pistols...(And ATI, AO, etc)...need is the same quality parts that people use to keep Grandpa's A1, "Running like a top"! Good enough for me!

 

[Wabatuckian]

So what you're saying is that RIA gets it right as far as deciding to stay true to the original JM Browning internal design.

It's the rest of their choices that are not conducive with those of a quality 1911 according to some.

Rock Island/Armscor is very good when it comes to the frame and slide, and the barrel impresses me, too. I had a barrel from a Colt Gold Cup I was going to install in mine, but the stock barrel just shot so well that I had no reason to change it. I fitted a NM bushing, shot a single-hole 7-shot group at 10 paces, and called it good.

You might keep in mind that STI uses the frame and slide for some of their models. The Spartan comes to mind.

When I bought my Rock GI, I bought it knowing I was going to chop it up and put it back together. As I sit here typing this, I have it in a horsehide OWB holster.

The internals are all cast or forged. The sear is actually a surplus GI sear with a radius on it. I cut it for a 0.250" radius beavertail and I'm running an Ed Brown on it. The ambi safety (I'm a lefty) is a Caspian, I've undercut the trigger guard, and it wears new sights.

The only MIM part is the hammer, which is a Wilson Valu-Line. It's just being tried out; I was curious about current MIM stuff. I'll probably get it a new hammer soon, probably a Brown.

Why did I go to all this trouble?

I owned one of the first Armscor pistols to come into America, I think; it was a CD 1911 with all the bells and whistles and the serial number was 1097.

The ambi safety they used was a Mueschke and I broke it in short order. Broke the replacement, too. They were cheap MIM stuff.

Likewise, on this new RIA, the hammer was still a Mueschke or a John Mason or something. The sear was MIM. It doubled or bump fired; the trigger was light enough to do the latter unintentionally. Since I was just trying it out, it wasn't a big deal. The hammer and other crap got pulled and tossed in the trash anyway.

I was NOT impressed with the stuff they filled the frame with. I do hope that they've improved since.

Josh

 

[aaron580]

Perhaps all RIA pistols...(And ATI, AO, etc)...need is the same quality parts that people use to keep Grandpa's A1, "Running like a top"! Good enough for me!

Again, I'm not a 1911 snob, especially since I traded mine off for my 629, but if it needs "quality" parts to "run like a top," Ill save for a reliable "out of the box" 1911….

 

[churchmouse]

Again, I'm not a 1911 snob, especially since I traded mine off for my 629, but if it needs "quality" parts to "run like a top," Ill save for a reliable "out of the box" 1911….

What, and miss out on all this fun. In the back of my mind I knew that we (son and I) would be into his new TAO very soon but did not know it would be this deep. We do bushings/trigger work/etc. on every 1911 we own. It is like owning a Harley Davidson. Platform is OK when you get it but you just know it can be better with a little work. And Money...

 

[88E30M50]

Again, I'm not a 1911 snob, especially since I traded mine off for my 629, but if it needs "quality" parts to "run like a top," Ill save for a reliable "out of the box" 1911….

You'll rule out a lot of guns if you aren't willing to swap parts. Colt for one. I gutted my Delta Elite and installed all WC internals and had a custom EGW bushing cut to clean up the bushing/barrel fit. It runs like a top now and my RIA benefited from all the extra parts.

 

[churchmouse]

You'll rule out a lot of guns if you aren't willing to swap parts. Colt for one. I gutted my Delta Elite and installed all WC internals and had a custom EGW bushing cut to clean up the bushing/barrel fit. It runs like a top now and my RIA benefited from all the extra parts.

As have several RIA's owned by good friends and their buddy's from all my spare parts and cast offs. The hammer/sear from 4 of the Para's I have owned is far better made than the parts they stuff in the RIA's.
1 very good friend waited until he knew I had parts before he got his RIA out of the lay-away. Deviates I tell ya......

 

[88E30M50]

Yes, the original 1911 system has the barrel riding the lower lug into battery. The a1 system has it riding the link into battery, which can cause problems as it's a steeper angle.

If lugs are not tuned properly, they will develop lug bump (flat spots) that cause the barrel and and slide and all to slow down right as the round begins to enter the chamber.

This was mine. It occurred as I was pursuing tighter lockup with a slightly larger diameter pin than comes stock on Rock Islands.

The fix is to recontour to the proper diameter -- hand fit, if you will:

Just takes some contact fluid or a sharpie, smithing stones, and some time.

When standing on the rear lugs, their should properly (according to be bluprint spec) be a couple thousandths of an inch between the lug and the cross pin. This is why you can push the barrel hood down just a little bit when fully in battery.

I am not sure why JMB did it like this. I *think* it's to keep lugs from wearing it at too high of a speed. That initial rearward movement from the exploding shell is pretty doggone fast. But, I do not know for sure and therefore state this as conjecture only.

I've been looking through Google images for 1911a1 rear lugs with links for comparison purposes to post here, but it looks like the majority are on barrels for sale and the link is folded up out of the way on dang near all of them so that one cannot tell for sure whether they stand on the lugs or the links -- which probably means they stand on the links.

That's interesting. There was a good discussion over on M1911.org that debated whether or not the barrel should ride the link or the lug. One camp held that the barrel should ride the lug and that's why the barrel feet were profiled that way. The other camp held that the barrel should ride the link and the feet were simply profiled to leave the maximum amount of material without contacting the pin. Your description kind of makes them both right depending on the era 1911 you are discussing.

This is the direction I was hoping this thread would take.

 

[churchmouse]

If you sight the line it looks like the hole in the link is partially shrouded by the lug. It appears the pin would not pass through. Is this the profile that needs to be "Fit"

 

[Wabatuckian]

If you sight the line it looks like the hole in the link is partially shrouded by the lug. It appears the pin would not pass through. Is this the profile that needs to be "Fit"

No, the hole in the link is slightly larger than the cross pin (attached to the slide stop) that pulls it down and unlocks the barrel.

The only purpose of the link is to unlock the barrel because the barrel is moving too fast to move down by gravity alone.

You could replace the link with a piece of chain link or even a piece of string (in theory! don't try it!) and you'd have the same function.

The only purpose of that link, again, is to pull the barrel down. On the forward stroke of the slide, the link serves no purpose on an original Browning 1911 design. The lower lugs put the barrel back where it needs to be.

Josh

 

[philbert001]

Lots of good info in this thread! Glad I've kept tabs on it!

 

[churchmouse]

No, the hole in the link is slightly larger than the cross pin (attached to the slide stop) that pulls it down and unlocks the barrel.

The only purpose of the link is to unlock the barrel because the barrel is moving too fast to move down by gravity alone.

You could replace the link with a piece of chain link or even a piece of string (in theory! don't try it!) and you'd have the same function.

The only purpose of that link, again, is to pull the barrel down. On the forward stroke of the slide, the link serves no purpose on an original Browning 1911 design. The lower lugs put the barrel back where it needs to be.

Josh

After reviewing my question again and looking at the info I have on hand this was my thoughts as well. I am glad you verified this point. Once in lock up the barrel is stationary between the lugs and the slide.

 

[SERparacord]

[h=2]CHECK FOR A LOOSE BARREL[/h]If he agrees, first pull the slide back slightly from the locked-up "in battery" position. In a 1911-A1 or Series 80 pull the slide back a very small amount, just enough to clear the barrel hood from the boltface guides. Grasp the barrel with your fingers and try to turn it. If it turns only slightly or not at all, this is good. If it is loose, and floppy, this is probably bad news. Very likely the under-barrel lug fits loosely in the slot in the frame, and there is a lot of link and pin wear. This will not help in guiding a precise and repeatable lock up into battery. This repeat- able lock-up is the very essence of accuracy in any semi-auto with a tilt- ing barrel Browning type lockup. Unless you are able to afford the cost of having a new Match barrel and bushing fitted this alone may be enough to disqualify this gun immediately. This test is not usually applicable to a Series 70 unless the barrel bushing has been replaced with one of the 1911A1/Series 80 type. The Series 70 bushing will hold the barrel too tight to allow it to be moved easily with the fingers for this test but it does not invalidate the need to check barrel and frame measurements.

M1911

 

[ghitch75]

No, the hole in the link is slightly larger than the cross pin (attached to the slide stop) that pulls it down and unlocks the barrel.

The only purpose of the link is to unlock the barrel because the barrel is moving too fast to move down by gravity alone.

You could replace the link with a piece of chain link or even a piece of string (in theory! don't try it!) and you'd have the same function.

The only purpose of that link, again, is to pull the barrel down. On the forward stroke of the slide, the link serves no purpose on an original Browning 1911 design. The lower lugs put the barrel back where it needs to be.

Josh

yes lugs should ride on the slide stop not the link.....if it's riding on the link that is where welding lower lugs comes in.......

 

[philbert001]

CHECK FOR A LOOSE BARREL

If he agrees, first pull the slide back slightly from the locked-up "in battery" position. In a 1911-A1 or Series 80 pull the slide back a very small amount, just enough to clear the barrel hood from the boltface guides. Grasp the barrel with your fingers and try to turn it. If it turns only slightly or not at all, this is good. If it is loose, and floppy, this is probably bad news. Very likely the under-barrel lug fits loosely in the slot in the frame, and there is a lot of link and pin wear. This will not help in guiding a precise and repeatable lock up into battery. This repeat- able lock-up is the very essence of accuracy in any semi-auto with a tilt- ing barrel Browning type lockup. Unless you are able to afford the cost of having a new Match barrel and bushing fitted this alone may be enough to disqualify this gun immediately. This test is not usually applicable to a Series 70 unless the barrel bushing has been replaced with one of the 1911A1/Series 80 type. The Series 70 bushing will hold the barrel too tight to allow it to be moved easily with the fingers for this test but it does not invalidate the need to check barrel and frame measurements.

M1911

good read!

 

[aaron580]

good read!

You and SERparacord not bickering….WHOA!

 

[churchmouse]

You and SERparacord not bickering….WHOA!

This is how to share info and learn from it. I know my way around a 1911 but there is always something to be learned.