AR15: Major Keyholing Issues

[Colt556]

From the description of events I would guess it's the ammo. I am following this thread closely though.

 

[IndyGunworks]

1500 rds of brown bear is like the equivalent of firing 6000 rds of high quality ammo.

Oh yea & if that barrel isn't chrome lined then the bores prob shot. Keyholing at 50 yds is real bad. Hope this helps

i would love to see you try to substantiate this claim with any sort of factual based data

 

[DialTone301]

Eliminate the obvious first....try different ammo. Nothing else makes much sense at this point.

 

[Mr. Habib]

My . Try cleaning the barrel thoroughly with a good copper solvent. Try a different brand of QUALITY ammo. If the first two don't help, then do this. Remove the flash hider and try shooting without it. This is the reason I asked about shooting M855 earlier. The case neck sealant that is used in M855 vaporizes when the round is fired and leaves deposits in the barrel that collect near the rear of the flash hider. often even a good cleaning won't reach this area. After a 1000 rounds or so these deposits can affect accuracy and cause problems just like this. I personally know of tests with M855 where M16s went from normal accuracy to literally not keeping rounds on the back stop because of this. I don't know what sealant the Russians use, but I'd try that before I pitched the barrel.

 

[Mgderf]

A complete stab in the dark here.

It's only been a few days ago I posted questions about a friends new Glock 36 key-holing at an indoor range, and at a distance of only 15 yards.

I received many guesses as to the cause, but one suggestion made me think.

Someone suggested that it may NOT be the barrel or even the ammo, but rather an un-backed target.

Therefore, I'm going to make the suggestion that you try the SAME ammo, at the same distance, and back your targets with a piece of stiff cardboard.

The theory was that the rounds were pushing the paper target back to an angle before penetrating the paper, and creating what appears to be a bullet not stabilized.

Just a suggestion.

 

[obijohn]

i just have a hard time understanding how stickey gas rings could cause keyholing

stabilizing the bullet in flight is a function of shape (ogive), twist rate AND velocity. Haven't you seen the difference in group size 50 fps can make?

I am in no way suggesting that the gas rings are a definitive answer to this issue, only relating what happened to MY rifle. Not speculation, not anecdotal data, but my gun screwed up, i cleaned the bolt...all better. I must admit that i attend the RHINO school of gun cleaning: clean it when it quits.

I will also tend to agree with the purveyors of the ammo solution to this issue.

without actually seeing all the players (ammo, rifle in the state it was in when keyholing, etc. ) in this game, none of us except the owner will know.

 

[kwood]

Someone suggested that it may NOT be the barrel or even the ammo, but rather an un-backed target.

Therefore, I'm going to make the suggestion that you try the SAME ammo, at the same distance, and back your targets with a piece of stiff cardboard.

The theory was that the rounds were pushing the paper target back to an angle before penetrating the paper, and creating what appears to be a bullet not stabilized.

Just a suggestion.

i could be wrong but i think the round would be moving to fast to cause drag on the paper
im not engineer though so i wont pretend to back that up with any sort of data

 

[mvician]

i could be wrong but i think the round would be moving to fast to cause drag on the paper
im not engineer though so i wont pretend to back that up with any sort of data

nope.........an un backed paper target will tear and look like key holing.

 

[PapaScout]

nope.........an un backed paper target will tear and look like key holing.

Wouldn't all of the tears be in the same direction? These are pointing every which way.

 

[turnerdye1]

My . Try cleaning the barrel thoroughly with a good copper solvent. Try a different brand of QUALITY ammo. If the first two don't help, then do this. Remove the flash hider and try shooting without it. This is the reason I asked about shooting M855 earlier. The case neck sealant that is used in M855 vaporizes when the round is fired and leaves deposits in the barrel that collect near the rear of the flash hider. often even a good cleaning won't reach this area. After a 1000 rounds or so these deposits can affect accuracy and cause problems just like this. I personally know of tests with M855 where M16s went from normal accuracy to literally not keeping rounds on the back stop because of this. I don't know what sealant the Russians use, but I'd try that before I pitched the barrel.

I went out and got some Hoppes #9 and after this funeral i have to go to ill come home and give it a shot. Im hoping this solves my issues as well. Hopefully it will be green so i have an idea on how much to clean it out. This Brown Bear does have a neck and primer sealant so that possibly could attribute to this issue

nope.........an un backed paper target will tear and look like key holing.

My backing was cardboard and it has tons of holes in it from before I got there. Would a week backing make .223 look like they were tumbling?

 

[Rob377]

I've shot paper just hanging from a typical indoor range target carrier with no backing to speak of. Never looked like that. Ever.

 

[turnerdye1]

stabilizing the bullet in flight is a function of shape (ogive), twist rate AND velocity. Haven't you seen the difference in group size 50 fps can make?

I am in no way suggesting that the gas rings are a definitive answer to this issue, only relating what happened to MY rifle. Not speculation, not anecdotal data, but my gun screwed up, i cleaned the bolt...all better. I must admit that i attend the RHINO school of gun cleaning: clean it when it quits.

I will also tend to agree with the purveyors of the ammo solution to this issue.

without actually seeing all the players (ammo, rifle in the state it was in when keyholing, etc. ) in this game, none of us except the owner will know.

I can post up pictures off all of my gear and the ammo if youd like me to so you guys have a reference. but im hoping that is the copper in the barrel, the gas ring issue, and lastly ammo. i can always sell it and start using brass and reloading for it. i just hope its not the barrel

 

[turnerdye1]

I've shot paper just hanging from a typical indoor range target carrier with no backing to speak of. Never looked like that. Ever.

Hmm...yea the backing ordeal has me a bit confused as well

 

[XtremeVel]

but im hoping that is the copper in the barrel

Like a few have already said, I really doubt that is whats causing it.


I used to buy this when Sinclairs was in Fort Wayne when this product first came out. It worked better and faster than anything I had ever tried. I haven't bought it for years and can't vouch if its the same formula now days...



Click here: The Bore Cleaning Solvent 4oz Liquid

 

[Hookeye]

I'd try a box of 55gr PMC or WW Whitebox or similar before I cleaned it. Just to see if there's a diff. Then clean and test your reg ammo and a box of newer.

I'm betting ammo.

I tried some Wolf a long time ago and it shot like crap in my 1 in 9 Stag. Vmax 55 gr runs sub MOA.

 

[Cerberus]

And this works in a factory producing thousands of rounds per hour in automated machines?

Ever worked production? .003" is very much within an average tolerence for production work. Add to this that steel casings have more springback than brass, and slightly undersized or lightly out of tolerence bullets start to become more of a solid probability. Add to this the fact that Russian bullets can vary greatly from lot to lot just in their make up and either under sized or under/over weight, etc, etc etc.

There is a reason I zero my AKs with Yugo brass milsurp and then use Ruski commercial as my fun blasting ammo, while keeping the Yugo as rainy day back-up.

 

[sloughfoot]

Ever worked production? .003" is very much within an average tolerence for production work. Add to this that steel casings have more springback than brass, and slightly undersized or lightly out of tolerence bullets start to become more of a solid probability. Add to this the fact that Russian bullets can vary greatly from lot to lot just in their make up and either under sized or under/over weight, etc, etc etc.

There is a reason I zero my AKs with Yugo brass milsurp and then use Ruski commercial as my fun blasting ammo, while keeping the Yugo as rainy day back-up.

I have watched production machines making ammo at the Twin Cities Army Ammunition plant in, like 1971. The brass and bullets going by are a blur. Any bullets that don't have neck tension get thrown out by centrifigal force. And that did happen as part of the QC process.

I was there, I witnessed it. The desired neck tension is .001. That is an absolute. If there is no neck tension, the bullet gets thrown out in the first curve of the producton line.

I cannot imagine the Russkies not doing the same.

 

[citizenkane]

What range are you shooting at? I've seen this before when the elevation was way off and rounds were skipping into the target after hitting the ground.

 

[turnerdye1]

Like a few have already said, I really doubt that is whats causing it.


I used to buy this when Sinclairs was in Fort Wayne when this product first came out. It worked better and faster than anything I had ever tried. I haven't bought it for years and can't vouch if its the same formula now days...



Click here: The Bore Cleaning Solvent 4oz Liquid

I have some Hoppes #9 already but i didnt find time to clean it this evening. I will definetly post my results as it comes to me.

I'd try a box of 55gr PMC or WW Whitebox or similar before I cleaned it. Just to see if there's a diff. Then clean and test your reg ammo and a box of newer.

I'm betting ammo.

I tried some Wolf a long time ago and it shot like crap in my 1 in 9 Stag. Vmax 55 gr runs sub MOA.

Well its a little too late....i already cleaned it lol. I do plan on getting some better ammo to try out.

What range are you shooting at? I've seen this before when the elevation was way off and rounds were skipping into the target after hitting the ground.

I was shooting at Atterbury and they couldnt have been bouncing. It was only 50yds and as flat as could be.

 

[ghitch75]

slug the bore and measure the slug....that will tell the tale.....