AR15: Major Keyholing Issues

[ISP 5353]

Clean it really well, try some better, known quality, ammo and see what happens. Pull a few of the Russian rounds and check bullet specs and charge weights. Let us know what happens. Good luck.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

I never say never but, how does a .221 bullet stay in a case that is sized for a .223 bullet? There has to be neck tension to keep the bullet in the case.

With a buttload of crimp??

 

[sloughfoot]

With a buttload of crimp??

Nope. Crimp can never make up for lack of neck tension. The bullet will be wobbly in the case and it will be immediately apparrent to the factory and the end user. Even the russkies have to have basic QC....

Hah, I said "never"....

But you can verify my statement for yourself by crimping a normal bullet into a fired, unsized case. It just does not work...

 

[Rob377]

Nope. Crimp can never make up for lack of neck tension. The bullet will be wobbly in the case and it will be immediately apparrent to the factory and the end user. Even the russkies have to have basic QC....

Hah, I said "never"....

But you can verify my statement for yourself by crimping a normal bullet into a fired, unsized case. It just does not work...

Wouldn't that depend on the type of crimp? Basic taper crimp, it makes sense that it wouldn't hold. But with a collet style "factory crimp" like the Lee FCD dies for pistols have, I can see it working.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Wouldn't that depend on the type of crimp? Basic taper crimp, it makes sense that it wouldn't hold. But with a collet style "factory crimp" like the Lee FCD dies for pistols have, I can see it working.

I've tried to crimp a .308 round into a sized .303 brit case (designed for a .311 bullet. Didn't work, even with a heavy roll crimp. Simpley not enough surface area.

 

[mertbl]

Is your brrel nut still tight?

 

[Yeah]

Bullets loaded into 223 Rem are, largely, 0.224" in diameter. I'd flinch if I discovered commercial ammo manufacturers sizing necks with less than 0.008" constriction and unable to achieve purchase on a 0.218" bullet. I don't, but they likely do.

This thread is stocked with wild guesses more so than usual. Cleaning it is particularly entertaining.

OP: have you spun this bore by hand, to know it is a 1 in 7"?

 

[sloughfoot]

Wouldn't that depend on the type of crimp? Basic taper crimp, it makes sense that it wouldn't hold. But with a collet style "factory crimp" like the Lee FCD dies for pistols have, I can see it working.

I just tried it with a Lee FCD. It does not work. The bullet freely drops into the case until stopped by the powder. I was able to crimp the bullet into the case but the OAL is so obviously wrong and the bullet is not firm in the case.

The end user would immediately notice the bullet down in the case.

I stand by my statement and years of reloading experience. Neck tension is essential and is far more important than crimp or type of crimp. Properly designed resizing dies give .001 of neck tension. No more. More neck tension than .001 creates more runout

 

[Cerberus]

I never say never but, how does a .221 bullet stay in a case that is sized for a .223 bullet? There has to be neck tension to keep the bullet in the case.

The same way I can get a .427 bullet to stay in a caseing sized to .430. Cannalure crimp.

 

[sloughfoot]

The same way I can get a .427 bullet to stay in a caseing sized to .430. Cannalure crimp.

And this works in a factory producing thousands of rounds per hour in automated machines?

 

[paintman]

i had a friend of mine not long ago complain about the same thing. spent hours trying to find something wrong with the gun. just to find out it was the ammo he was useing. changed ammo and the problem was fixed.

 

[turnerdye1]

Me too. This whole thread has me scratching my head.

A 1X7 223 barrel stabilizes everything. I have never seen a dirty barrel cause keyholing. Never a dinged muzzle. Certainly never a magazine.

You could always measure your bullets to see if they are undersize, but I don't see how that could cause keyholing either.

Something is happening that is a mystery to me.

Your telling me lol. I have no idea what to do at this point

Look, the easiest thing to rule out is the ammo.

Go grab a box of quality factory loads by a reputable company (we are not considering steel cased Russian ammo *reputable* for this experiment).

A different brand of ammo, key-holing or not, will tell you LOADS more than any internet gun-nut's suggestion can at this point. Otherwise, you are just guessing... and whatever you decide to try is going to cost more than trying different ammo first (which is really NO COST because you always need more ammo anyways).

Yes, I heard you claim you've never had a problem before with the ammo you are using - multiple times actually. Same lot or not, the ammunition is the most likely culprit at this juncture. After all, the Russians are not known for their precision or attention to detail.

I do plan on trying out some ammo before i do anything drastic. Ill get some hornady vmax stuff and some AE and try out before i go out swap out parts to see if it helps.

Is your brrel nut still tight?

Im not sure. I dont really know how to check that.

Bullets loaded into 223 Rem are, largely, 0.224" in diameter. I'd flinch if I discovered commercial ammo manufacturers sizing necks with less than 0.008" constriction and unable to achieve purchase on a 0.218" bullet. I don't, but they likely do.

This thread is stocked with wild guesses more so than usual. Cleaning it is particularly entertaining.

OP: have you spun this bore by hand, to know it is a 1 in 7"?

No i have not. I dont have the tools and i dont want to pay to have it done.

i had a friend of mine not long ago complain about the same thing. spent hours trying to find something wrong with the gun. just to find out it was the ammo he was useing. changed ammo and the problem was fixed.

I do plan on switching up some ammo to see if it works but idk why it would randomly start right now. Who knows

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I'm guessing it's an ammo issue.

 

[Fargo]

I do plan on switching up some ammo to see if it works but idk why it would randomly start right now. Who knows

It would randomly start because at this point in your case of ammo, somebody in Russia started loading the wrong diameter of bullets.

Keep in mind, we are talking about russian steel cased factory ammo. I'm no expert on it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that loading it and seating the bullets is more than a few ticks different from reloading brass cased ammo.

The only time I've seen keyholing like you are seeing is from undersized bullets (firing 9mm through a .357 bore) or way too slow of a twist rate. In this case, I'm going to guess undersized bullets.

Best,

Joe

 

[sloughfoot]

The barrel nut can only loosen about .050 before it is stopped by the gas tube. If it keeps loosening beyond that, it would pinch off, then cut the gas tube in two.

It is really easy to check barrel twist. Use a cleaning rod to pull a tight fitting patch through the bore. Mark the cleaning rod at the muzzle with a sharpie. Pull the rod out until the mark is at the same position. Measure the distance between the mark and the muzzle. This distance is the twist rate. You don't have to be exact. The difference between 7, 8, or 9 inch twists is huge.

 

[dtkw]

Or you could send it back to the manufacturer to check it out. If it happened to my Smithy M&P, I'd send it back since Smithy has a unlimited warrantee policy.

 

[dross]

Stop and think about everything we know. It has to be ammo.

 

[arbys1]

1500 rds of brown bear is like the equivalent of firing 6000 rds of high quality ammo. And if all you use to clean it is a bore snake then its fouled. I can't even imagine what the gas system looks like. Remember when people used to say not to shoot cheap Russian ammo through your sexy black rifles. This is exactly why. Pull the barrel & gas system & really clean it.

 

[arbys1]

Oh yea & if that barrel isn't chrome lined then the bores prob shot. Keyholing at 50 yds is real bad. Hope this helps

 

[fireball168]

This thread is stocked with wild guesses more so than usual.

Amen