Anyone Have Appleseed Advice?

[ATM]

I fully agree with this, and that is why I asked.

The fact that you can hold 4moa at 25m has absolutely nothing to do with whether you can hold 4moa at 500m.

What other skills besides judging and compensating for wind are there?

Possibly range estimation if you are shooting unknown distances but elevation adjustment for known distance (at least to 500m) is just simple math based on bullet trajectory charts.

To state "absolutely nothing" completely removes the huge components of positional steady hold factors, sling adjustment, establishing NPOA, sight picture, breathing, focus, trigger control, follow through, calling your shots, etc. These I would consider major components of holding 4moa at any distance.

 

[techres]

The fact that you can hold 4moa at 25m has absolutely nothing to do with whether you can hold 4moa at 500m.

The reality as one who does the training is this: the 4 MOA at 500m adds in two components: ballistics and wind.

Of the two, ballistics is not that big a deal so long as you are working wiht known distances and you have a good mental (or written down) database for drop and sight adjustments. For the most part this is not a big deal at all.

Wind is far more fun of the two. Doping wind is a bit of an art and the teaching is easier on a light wind day, harder on a hard wind day, and a whole boatload of fun on a gusty (variable) day. That being the case, we still teach it and people do well.

Additionally, to be highly technical, the students usually hold 4 MOA without any difficulty at 500m. The problem is putting that consistent 4 MOA group on the target. Again, barring gusty winds, the students DO hold 4 MOA typically and do it well.

So, in the end, we do "Known Distance" shooting whenever the range provides. It is what we are gearing each shooter to be able to do. And although it requires a little bit extra teaching of advanced skills, the basic ability to hold 4 MOA at 25m leads them to be able to hold 4 MOA at 500.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[unforgiven1203]

squisher, my advice would be to bring both (.22 and centerfire) provided that the range allows centerfire. That way you have the option of spending 4-7 cents a round for rimfire or .25 for centerfire, and you can switch back and forth if you feel the urge.
I plan on shooting my m4gery on the 19th, but if I'm not doing so well I'll switch to my 10/22, work on the same fundementals and save some cash.

 

[Litlratt]

What other skills besides judging and compensating for wind are there?

Possibly range estimation if you are shooting unknown distances but elevation adjustment for known distance (at least to 500m) is just simple math based on bullet trajectory charts.

To state "absolutely nothing" completely removes the huge components of positional steady hold factors, sling adjustment, establishing NPOA, sight picture, breathing, focus, trigger control, follow through, calling your shots, etc. These I would consider major components of holding 4moa at any distance.

The basics are required at whatever distance you're shooting.
My statement did not remove any of the components you mentioned. It was merely a fact. I agree that you are much more likely to hold 4moa at 500 if you can do it at 25, but that doesn't mean that you can or will.

The reality as one who does the training is this: the 4 MOA at 500m adds in two components: ballistics and wind.

Of the two, ballistics is not that big a deal so long as you are working wiht known distances and you have a good mental (or written down) database for drop and sight adjustments. For the most part this is not a big deal at all.

Wind is far more fun of the two. Doping wind is a bit of an art and the teaching is easier on a light wind day, harder on a hard wind day, and a whole boatload of fun on a gusty (variable) day. That being the case, we still teach it and people do well.

Additionally, to be highly technical, the students usually hold 4 MOA without any difficulty at 500m. The problem is putting that consistent 4 MOA group on the target. Again, barring gusty winds, the students DO hold 4 MOA typically and do it well.

So, in the end, we do "Known Distance" shooting whenever the range provides. It is what we are gearing each shooter to be able to do. And although it requires a little bit extra teaching of advanced skills, the basic ability to hold 4 MOA at 25m leads them to be able to hold 4 MOA at 500.

Hope that clarifies.

I agree that ballistics in regard to a known distance are relatively simple and not much of a factor. Zeroes are easy to establish. On a given range, they normally won't change more than a moa.
However, ballistics regarding a projectiles accuracy will have a huge effect on group size when comparing 25m to 500m. We are talking about surplus ammo here.

If your students aren't "putting that consistent 4 MOA group on the target", how do you know it's a 4moa group?

Please don't misinterpret my questions as being critical of the Appleseed Project or any of its instructors. The little research that I've done leads me to believe that it's the best thing to happen to rifle shooting since jacketed bullets.

I can and do appreciate the efforts and the sacrifices made by you and the other instructors to educate the general public. To show my appreciation, I invite you, Hawk and any 3 of the Indiana instructors to compete in a NRA Highpower match at Camp Atterbury that is hosted by CIHPRS. I will pay the 5 instructors match fees the first time and ensure that you have any equipment you may need.
Our course of fire is very similar and the positions are exactly what you teach. Service rifle or match rifle, iron sights, 30 cal or less. I wouldn't suggest a "rack-grade rifle with surplus ammo." The 8 ring at 500 yards is 20 inches, just slightly less than a true 4moa.

 

[techres]

If your students aren't "putting that consistent 4 MOA group on the target", how do you know it's a 4moa group?

Because we fix the error, get them on target and then they go plink, plink, plink or more like petang, but you get my drift.

Please don't misinterpret my questions as being critical of the Appleseed Project or any of its instructors. The little research that I've done leads me to believe that it's the best thing to happen to rifle shooting since jacketed bullets.

Thanks for the compliment.

I can and do appreciate the efforts and the sacrifices made by you and the other instructors to educate the general public. To show my appreciation, I invite you, Hawk and any 3 of the Indiana instructors to compete in a NRA Highpower match at Camp Atterbury that is hosted by CIHPRS. I will pay the 5 instructors match fees the first time and ensure that you have any equipment you may need.
Our course of fire is very similar and the positions are exactly what you teach. Service rifle or match rifle, iron sights, 30 cal or less. I wouldn't suggest a "rack-grade rifle with surplus ammo." The 8 ring at 500 yards is 20 inches, just slightly less than a true 4moa.

Oooh! Now you are just being kindly. Hawkhavn shoots high power with some regularity and I have been trying to break free from family to do the same and this might just be the ticket.

Appleseed and High Power already are making connections in the state and this would be another continuation of exactly that. I thank you for it and now go off to see the internal race to see who signs up first.

Thanks again. Hope to meet you in person before long.

 

[Litlratt]

If I may, I'll start a thread in the Appleseed forum to prevent any more disruption of this one.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/appleseed/64414-litlratts_invitation.html

 

[Seancass]

I didn't know which thread to ask this:

Are there many Bolt action rifles at these events? I could choose between an M48 Mauser, SKS or maybe a semi-auto savage .22. I have plenty of ammo for all.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I didn't know which thread to ask this:

Are there many Bolt action rifles at these events? I could choose between an M48 Mauser, SKS or maybe a semi-auto savage .22. I have plenty of ammo for all.

I shot my first Rifleman score with a Savage .22 bolt. We do not see many bolt-actions because they require that you break position between every shot, however it is possible to do it.

Even if you do not make the score for a Rifleman patch, you'll still learn the basics and be able to practice them on your own. We had one shooter (somewhere, I'm not sure where) who was visiting from another country. He wanted to shoot, but IIRC, he was visiting from NZ or Australia or somewhere else that denies people their natural and fundamental rights of self defense. Being a visitor, he could not purchase a firearm here, either, so he improvised: He took a broomstick and a sponge. The sponge served as the buttstock; the broomstick as the stock and barrel of his improvised "rifle", and he practiced his positions, his steady hold factors, etc., and he came and shot. I seem to recall that he did well, but I don't recall any more detail of this story. Techres, if either you or Hawkhavn will fill in the gaps, I'd appreciate it.

The bottom line is that if you bring a rifle that is safe to shoot and the range permits that caliber, you may shoot it with us. I am aware of no range that forbids .22 (and as a bonus, the ammo is inexpensive!)

Good luck!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[unforgiven1203]

sean, look further up the page! I think the savage and the sks would be a good pair. nothing wrong with the mauser either but it only holds 5 rds and like bill said "they require that you break position between every shot".

 

[rhino]

What little shooting we did at the Mini 'seed I did last winter, I did with my bolt action CZ 452 Scout. I think I still have my first target. I think I have a couple out of the little orange spots when we shot the very first time to see where we were hitting. But I also got confused in the sleet and crossfired onto my nephew's target.

 

[squisher]

sean, look further up the page! I think the savage and the sks would be a good pair. nothing wrong with the mauser either but it only holds 5 rds and like bill said "they require that you break position between every shot".

If the bolt is operating well and smooth, you should only have to move the trigger hand (which I'm sure is bad enough, but anyway...) and as for 5-round internal magazine -- that's what stripper clips are for

My .22 is tube-fed, so quite inappropriate, and it is apparently not very good quality as it has feed issues (main problem -- jams every 3-5, might be ammunition related, haven't had time to try others). So in my case it's cheaper to buy a chunk of mil-surp centerfire than it is for me to drop $ on a 10/22 or similar in this case.

Though a .22 with a magazine is on my list of wants. All in all it sounds like if a person is comfortable with their rifle they really should be just fine. Hopefully I'll see you guys next year

 

[ATM]

My .22 is tube-fed, so quite inappropriate, and it is apparently not very good quality as it has feed issues (main problem -- jams every 3-5, might be ammunition related, haven't had time to try others).

Tube-feds are OK if you can resolve the feed issues.