An answer to "Just had a knock at the door... "

[Liberty Sanders]

I agree that both parties were at fault.

First off, I believe if a LEO does not identify himself or herself and provide badge/ID, he or she should not act in such a capacity until its happened.

Second, if someone is coming to my door, I am going to ask them to identify themselves before I open the door, and yes, I will have a weapon in my hand, and possibly a second gun/knife close by.

Finally, if someone points a gun at me, I have to assume they are willing to shoot me. "Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy" (Rule #2).

This is a tragedy, and assuming the information we have is accurate, I think the shooting was justified (since the victim pointed a gun at the LEO's outside), maybe negligent (depends on how much weight you place on the LEO's identifying themselves), and definitely avoidable.

No, the shooting was not justified.

I knocked on plenty of doors in my LEO days where I had good reason to believe that there was someone damned dangerous on the other side. You don't knock and then just stand there. You position yourself so that whoever is going to open the door can't just open it and shoot you. If necessary you move away and get behind a wall, a tree, your car, anything that will stop bullets.

Even when you're knocking on a door where you have NO expectation of a hostile response, you stand off to the side just in case.

If you're going to pound on a door in the middle of the damned night in a country where citizens are armed, you have to expect that SOME of them (at least the ones who value their lives and who have any sense) will answer the door armed.

In a situation like this you don't just knock on the door and HOPE for the best. You set up a perimeter, you knock on the door, loudly identify yourself as the PO-PO, then run like hell for the closest cover. You have uniforms with you to counter any claim by the bad guy that he didn't know who you are.

The LEOs involved in this situation not only acted unprofessionally, they were just downright STUPID!!!

If they'd handled this situation the way I'd expect any reasonably trained rookie to handle it, no one would have died.

 

[Justin Case]

As KLB said, there was no mention of a search warrant.

It doesn't appear they had a warrant. The only evidence they had was a motorcycle associated with the reported crime was parked in the parking lot. They did not have an address. They simply guessed and they guessed wrong.

 

[Valvestate]

Klb's right, I didnt't see a mention of a warrant either. Anyways, the piece of logic I'm talking about is the choice to knock on the door of that house because the bg's bike was in front of it. Makes sense to start asking questions there if you have nothing else. Knocking on a door doesn't kill people, shooting them does.

 

[88GT]

Klb's right, I didnt't see a mention of a warrant either. Anyways, the piece of logic I'm talking about is the choice to knock on the door of that house because the bg's bike was in front of it. Makes sense to start asking questions there if you have nothing else. Knocking on a door doesn't kill people, shooting them does.

Unless it's assigned parking, no, it doesn't. And there's a helluva big difference between asking questions and shooting the guy.

Did motorcycles have their own special parking section? Did they consider that option?

I've never lived in an apartment complex where I got to park in front of my unit unless I came home in the middle of the day when everyone else was at work or school.

And we can only assume that these are single level apartments in the story because how in the world would they have determined if it was the first, second, or third story in which the parking spot was "in front of?"

Regardless, I don't care if they knew the guy they wanted was in that apartment. If they didn't know who else was in the apartment or why, they jumped the gun, pardon the pun.

 

[trapperDave]

it will be like the Bissard case here. blue takes care of blue and the citizens be damned...or in this case murdered

 

[Kedric]

it will be like the Bissard case here. blue takes care of blue and the citizens be damned...or in this case murdered

I'm afraid that is what will happen too. Both sides made some pretty phenomenal mistakes, but there is no way that anyone can call this a justified shooting, IMHO.

 

[Ted]

No, the shooting was not justified.

I knocked on plenty of doors in my LEO days where I had good reason to believe that there was someone damned dangerous on the other side. You don't knock and then just stand there. You position yourself so that whoever is going to open the door can't just open it and shoot you. If necessary you move away and get behind a wall, a tree, your car, anything that will stop bullets.

Even when you're knocking on a door where you have NO expectation of a hostile response, you stand off to the side just in case.

If you're going to pound on a door in the middle of the damned night in a country where citizens are armed, you have to expect that SOME of them (at least the ones who value their lives and who have any sense) will answer the door armed.

In a situation like this you don't just knock on the door and HOPE for the best. You set up a perimeter, you knock on the door, loudly identify yourself as the PO-PO, then run like hell for the closest cover. You have uniforms with you to counter any claim by the bad guy that he didn't know who you are.

The LEOs involved in this situation not only acted unprofessionally, they were just downright STUPID!!!

If they'd handled this situation the way I'd expect any reasonably trained rookie to handle it, no one would have died.

Yep, the Po-Po weren't exactly on their game. I shocked that Darwin didn't intervene on behalf of at least one of these guys. Fortunately for the cops only, Darwin favored the homeowner instead, due to his own superior stupidity.

Despite LS's assertion that the shooting wasn't justified, a firearm was in fact pointed at them.....warranting a deadly response......and despite these cops's apparent major brain farts.

 

[KG1]

Yep, the Po-Po weren't exactly on their game. I shocked that Darwin didn't intervene on behalf of at least one of these guys. Fortunately for the cops only, Darwin favored the homeowner instead, due to his own superior stupidity.

Despite LS's assertion that the shooting wasn't justified, a firearm was in fact pointed at them.....warranting a deadly response......and despite these cops's apparent major brain farts.

Brain farts kill.

 

[Ted]

Brain farts kill.

Sometimes lady luck plays a hand too.

Toledoan, 92, mistakenly shoots officer - Toledo Blade

 

[Kisada]

The LEOs involved in this situation not only acted unprofessionally, they were just downright STUPID!!!

If they'd handled this situation the way I'd expect any reasonably trained rookie to handle it

Seems that is a major, overlooked problem these days. No one really gets the proper training anymore. The push to get warm bodies on the job is too great, so correct training/procedures go right out the window. Of course there is the case of sheer stupidity, combined with lack of said training...

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Despite LS's assertion that the shooting wasn't justified, a firearm was in fact pointed at them.....warranting a deadly response......and despite these cops's apparent major brain farts.

Once again, this is NOT A FACT. This is only according to a news article quoting a cop who happens to be a fallible human being.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Yep, the Po-Po weren't exactly on their game. I shocked that Darwin didn't intervene on behalf of at least one of these guys. Fortunately for the cops only, Darwin favored the homeowner instead, due to his own superior stupidity.

Despite LS's assertion that the shooting wasn't justified, a firearm was in fact pointed at them.....warranting a deadly response......and despite these cops's apparent major brain farts.

While the article might say he was pointing the gun at the police, that is the officers side of the story. It's what makes this shoot "justified" for him. Whether you're the right or wrong person, if you point a firearm at a police officer then he will shoot to protect himself.

If you had the choice to say, "he was pointing the gun at me so I shot" or "well he answered the door with a gun in his hand so I shot him", which would you choose? That's the part of this that will keep him from losing his job and substantially being charged with murder. While I'd like to believe the officer had a justifiable reason, it just doesn't add up. Gun in hand... believable. Victim swinging the door open with the gun pointed out and not getting the first shot off? Not likely.

The officer is covering his ass because he knows he ****ed up.

 

[Oliver]

I didn't read this all, and it may have been covered, but wasn't there a situation recently where a person shot another person through a door because they thought the person on the outside was going to break it in? Also, wasn't the shooter found to be not guilty?
What would have happened if the homeowner would have told them to go the F away, and found no, or the wrong, response?

 

[Bunnykid68]

Yep, the Po-Po weren't exactly on their game. I shocked that Darwin didn't intervene on behalf of at least one of these guys. Fortunately for the cops only, Darwin favored the homeowner instead, due to his own superior stupidity.

Despite LS's assertion that the shooting wasn't justified, a firearm was in fact pointed at them.....warranting a deadly response......and despite these cops's apparent major brain farts.

How do we know the innocent victim actually pointed a gun at the offending idiot officers.

If I answered the door with a gun pointed at someone and they shot me, I would have gotten off at least one shot.

 

[Ted]

Okay......So the next media story that appears.....should everyone's response be....."We don't know that is what happened."?

Of course we don't know, but faced with a lack of other information, can we just pretend this is what happened.....until we receive confirmation otherwise?

 

[ckcollins2003]

Okay......So the next media story that appears.....should everyone's response be....."We don't know that is what happened."?

Of course we don't know, but faced with a lack of other information, can we just pretend this is what happened.....until we receive confirmation otherwise?

No, we can't pretend that an innocent man was killed because the police decided to go to the wrong house again. It really happened. Whether or not he pointed the gun at the officer, they were at the wrong house and he was simply protecting his home. It's happened multiple times before this and will never stop until these officers are treated the same as us civilians.

Let's pretend for a minute that a neighbor of yours is making a lot of noise. You go over there just to talk with him, he gets upset and you see a gun in his hand. He points it at you, you get angry and shoot him. Do you really think that you won't be charged with murder? Sure, he pointed the gun at you, but you went to his doorstep. It's the exact same thing as this story. The only difference is that one of these guys wears a badge.

 

[KLB]

Okay......So the next media story that appears.....should everyone's response be....."We don't know that is what happened."?

Of course we don't know, but faced with a lack of other information, can we just pretend this is what happened.....until we receive confirmation otherwise?

That seems to be the response many make around here to articles, unless there is some other evidence like video or audio recordings.

 

[Valvestate]

Unless it's assigned parking, no, it doesn't. And there's a helluva big difference between asking questions and shooting the guy.

Did motorcycles have their own special parking section? Did they consider that option?

I've never lived in an apartment complex where I got to park in front of my unit unless I came home in the middle of the day when everyone else was at work or school.

And we can only assume that these are single level apartments in the story because how in the world would they have determined if it was the first, second, or third story in which the parking spot was "in front of?"

Regardless, I don't care if they knew the guy they wanted was in that apartment. If they didn't know who else was in the apartment or why, they jumped the gun, pardon the pun.

All I was trying to say is I think he had a good enough reason to knock and ask a few questions like "Hey, do you know so and so, where might I find him?" etc. He had a reason to be there. I never said I agreed with the shot or the guy losing his life. I'm not sure why the misunderstanding.

 

[Justin Case]

The door of the apartment was replaced today because it was shot full of holes. If he (dead guy) opened the door, how does the door get shot full of holes? This story just isn't making a lot of sense. The report says one deputy fired, but when you see the door, you'll see it is riddled with bullet holes. Did the DG step out in front of the door? Was the deputy just a really bad shot? Think about the angle and where the deputy had to be standing in order to shoot the door full of holes if the DG was inside his apartment. I'm thinking he didn't just fling the door open. I would have just cracked the door. How could have the DG have his gun pointed at the deputy who killed him immediately after opening the door? The deputy would not have stood directly in front of the door (besides being just a dumb place to stand if you're suspecting an attempted murder to open the door). If he did, he could not have shot the door full of holes. He had to have been standing on the right side of the door facing the door in order to shoot the door full of holes. Do you think the dead guy opened the door and pointed his gun around the corner?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWQPMSRvXJc


Local news video.
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html

 

[Birds Away]

Okay......So the next media story that appears.....should everyone's response be....."We don't know that is what happened."?

Of course we don't know, but faced with a lack of other information, can we just pretend this is what happened.....until we receive confirmation otherwise?

I am sure all of the Officers involved will be "pretending" this as hard as they can. It doesn't really pass the smell test. You can taste it if you want but better have some Scope handy.