Allow police to have proper tools to determine who the real outlaws are

[9mmfan]

Good thing the OP wasn't my sons bus driver about 7 or so years ago. I had sued for full custody (and eventually won) and some friendly police officers told me that a crimmestopers tip to them indicated possible violence may be perpetrated upon my son and I.
Soooooo I MAY have waited at my sons bus stop for several weeks with my car door open and me holding my handgun waiting until the bus drove away. As I said, I MAY have done this.

 

[sloughfoot]

Good thing the OP wasn't my sons bus driver about 7 or so years ago. I had sued for full custody (and eventually won) and some friendly police officers told me that a crimmestopers tip to them indicated possible violence may be perpetrated upon my son and I.
Soooooo I MAY have waited at my sons bus stop for several weeks with my car door open and me holding my handgun waiting until the bus drove away. As I said, I MAY have done this.

Lots of stories out there. Nothing Is ever as it seems. To think that everything is ALWAYS ordinary and normal will get you killed before you realize what is happening. If you ever do.....

This is the first thing taught in every Police Academy. NOTHING is EVER as it seems. I was commissioned in 1994. I still hear Captain Nelson"s voice in my head. His voice kept me alive in some hairy times.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Yes sir I would. My responsibility is the safety of the kids on the bus. At the bus stop, they are still the parent's responsibility. I am not a Police Officer ready to save the world. But my district's policy is quite clear on what I should do if I perceive a threat at a bus stop. I did not create the policy, but it also makes sense to me.

I did not create this scenario that we are discussing. The OP brought it up and referred to a newspaper article as part of his OP.

I responded with a point of view, that maybe some had not considered, and apparently some feel quite emotional about. That strong emotional response by itself is troubling. But somewhere in my previous posts, I mentioned that it is a fact that domestic disputes can and do happen at bus stops and elsewhere, that emotions are high and many times the adults involved are not thinking or acting rationally. That many times physical violence occurs during divorces and custody disputes.

I am a substitute bus driver. I work maybe twice a month on different routes. The regular driver may see the guy with the gun standing off to the side and know that he is "Johnny's" dad and he always stands like that. Because of my background and experience, I may perceive something totally different on the day that I am driving the route because the regular driver is sick.

Nobody is harmed if I just drive on until it can be checked out.

I have not seen a response from anybody who thinks that I should pick up THEIR kid and later in the route just ignore things that might not seem right and just go ahead and make the stop thereby possibly putting THEIR kids in danger.

Everybody has defended THEIR right to be visibly armed. You are also defending the angry parent who feels that he is getting screwed over in a custody dispute? Again, instead of attacking me perhaps you should think it all the way through.

You must admit that not everybody is the calm rational person that all of you gun carriers are, that have been ripping me since I posted my thoughts on this issue.

On Monday the 7th, I will be working a route for the first time this school year. If I see anything notable, I will post it here. I doubt that I will see anything out of the ordinary. Most people are reasonable people and just smile and wave. Guns are rarely, if ever, seen. We all just want to get the little precious darlings to school and back home again.

First, I am not "defending the angry parent" or anyone else. And I am deffinitly not "attacking" you!
do you really consider a simple question an "attack"? If so, then I have no interest in continuing any discussion (which is what I thought it was).
My question was in regards to your comment that you would leave a group of kids at a bus stop if you happened to see "an individual armed that was standing off from the group at the bus stop".
I don't understand your reasoning. Would your reaction be different if this person was standing WITH the group? Why or why not?
If your reaction to drive by is because you feel this person is a threat, is it your perception that he is a threat to you, the kids on the bus, or the kids or other parents at the stop?
I know this is just hypothetical, but with the only information being a person, standing away from a group of kids at a bus stop, With an open carried handgun, IF (and thats a big IF) I perceived him as a threat, I would think that the best course of action would be to act as normal as possible. Pick up the kids, move on down the road, get on the radio or cell phone to report my concern.
I know you mentioned the "district policy" but you also mentioned disregarding policy for safety.
So, you honestly say that if you were concerned about a guy with a holstered gun, you would only be worried about your own and the kids' safety that are already on the bus, but not the kids at the stop? What (except policy of an occasional part time job) makes one group of kids lives more important than the others?
Last question, would your response be any different if this was the first stop of the morning? (no kids yet on the bus, just you)

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I know of bus drivers who are retired policemen. It is totally legal for them to carry. It is against school district policy however.

I need a cite that it is legal for a retired LEO to carry on a school bus. Or on school grounds. There is an exception in IN law for LEO to do so but it doesn't say anything about retired.

There is no reason to open carry near a school bus stop. Children do not understand and are easily frightened. Why would anyone subject a child to their ego.

By that logic I shouldn't OC at the city park/walmart/grocery store or even my own yard. Actually not even in my house since my daughter has friends that come over to play.

 

[Dirtebiker]

I need a cite that it is legal for a retired LEO to carry on a school bus. Or on school grounds. There is an exception in IN law for LEO to do so but it doesn't say anything about retired.



By that logic I shouldn't OC at the city park/walmart/grocery store or even my own yard. Actually not even in my house since my daughter has friends that come over to play.

Think of the children, man! Well, except the ones that are not yet on the bus, we shouldn't care about them!

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Think of the children, man! Well, except the ones that are not yet on the bus, we shouldn't care about them!

A little logic might come into play here too, though - not that I think that ANYONE would think of this in the heat of the moment...
If the "gunman's " target was someone already at the bus stop - why the heck would he wait for a bus with a radio to show up before he rained down death and destruction? If the target was there - then just get on with it, right? So if a gunman was waiting for a bus - in my mind much more likely that he's waiting for someone on the bus. Otherwise, as soon as his target shows up - he does his thing and gets out of Dodge, right?

bottom line - _given our *arguably less than ideal* society_ somebody OCing at a bus stop, just as anyone else with anything out of the ordinary. - will and probably should raise some situational awareness. OC'ing - whether it should be or not - is out of the ordinary. If they exhibit erratic or out of control behavior - then action should be taken. UNTIL then - NO PROBLEM!

 

[JettaKnight]

By that logic I shouldn't OC at the city park/walmart/grocery store or even my own yard. Actually not even in my house since my daughter has friends that come over to play.

That reminds me of OC'ing with the nephew while during yard work - my sibling was not amused.

Good times!

 

[sloughfoot]

Think of the children, man! Well, except the ones that are not yet on the bus, we shouldn't care about them!

Maybe someday you will have to make this type of decision. And have to live with it afterward. I hope you and I do not have to, but you never know... if you have to make this decision, you will be second guessing yourself the rest of your life.

We all have to look at the totality of the circumstances of any given situation thrust in front of us and hopefully we make the best decision of how to proceed. Sometimes that decision has to be made in a split second.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Maybe someday you will have to make this type of decision. And have to live with it afterward. I hope you and I do not have to, but you never know... if you have to make this decision, you will be second guessing yourself the rest of your life.

We all have to look at the totality of the circumstances of any given situation thrust in front of us and hopefully we make the best decision of how to proceed. Sometimes that decision has to be made in a split second.

I fully agree!


Care to answer any of my earlier musings?

First, I am not "defending the angry parent" or anyone else. And I am deffinitly not "attacking" you!
do you really consider a simple question an "attack"? If so, then I have no interest in continuing any discussion (which is what I thought it was).
My question was in regards to your comment that you would leave a group of kids at a bus stop if you happened to see "an individual armed that was standing off from the group at the bus stop".
I don't understand your reasoning. Would your reaction be different if this person was standing WITH the group? Why or why not?
If your reaction to drive by is because you feel this person is a threat, is it your perception that he is a threat to you, the kids on the bus, or the kids or other parents at the stop?
I know this is just hypothetical, but with the only information being a person, standing away from a group of kids at a bus stop, With an open carried handgun, IF (and thats a big IF) I perceived him as a threat, I would think that the best course of action would be to act as normal as possible. Pick up the kids, move on down the road, get on the radio or cell phone to report my concern.
I know you mentioned the "district policy" but you also mentioned disregarding policy for safety.
So, you honestly say that if you were concerned about a guy with a holstered gun, you would only be worried about your own and the kids' safety that are already on the bus, but not the kids at the stop? What (except policy of an occasional part time job) makes one group of kids lives more important than the others?
Last question, would your response be any different if this was the first stop of the morning? (no kids yet on the bus, just you)

 

[sloughfoot]

I answered your questions before you asked them. In earlier posts.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I answered your questions before you asked them. In earlier posts.

How about an answer for me requesting a cite on the legality of retired LEO carrying on a school bus in IN?

 

[Dirtebiker]

I answered your questions before you asked them. In earlier posts.

I guess I can't read then, because I don't see them. If you don't want to answer, just say so.

 

[MikeDVB]

I guess I can't read then, because I don't see them. If you don't want to answer, just say so.

Hope you aren't holding your breath. Looks like you asked the tough questions and sloughfoot is taking the 'politician' way out of it.

 

[sloughfoot]

I am not interested in any hypothetical scenarios presented beyond the scope of the op. I have no interest in this thread beyond responding to the real situation spelled out in the op.

My answers to the question is clearly laid out in my previous posts.

I see no need to repeat what I have already stated.

From champaign illinois. I travel constantly and don't have a computer on the road.

 

[sloughfoot]

How about an answer for me requesting a cite on the legality of retired LEO carrying on a school bus in IN?

The legalty is the reality that a retired leo won't be bothered unless he uses the firearm and instead of solving a problem, he causes more problems.

I am not a retired leo btw. But I know how things work.

 

[Fixer]

It seems that he is no different than the sheep that are scared at the sight of a gun and run and hide or call the police to take care of it. You are using the bus stop or kids as an excuse to react differently than most would in other places. Do you report all OC's to the police as a possible mass shooting about to happen? Domestic violence happens everywhere not just at a bus stop. A holstered weapon is not threatening in an of itself. If you see someone arguing and they have a gun in hand then I would commend your actions.

I have yet to see parents rushing there kids out of the restaurant when I walk in. Most kids are not distressed at the sight of a gun unless there parents make them afraid. I don't see the logic of reacting that extremely in that situation.

And I do have kids and would not want you to drive off a couple stops down the road because you saw a man with a holstered gun.

 

[MikeDVB]

It seems that he is no different than the sheep that are scared at the sight of a gun and run and hide or call the police to take care of it. You are using the bus stop or kids as an excuse to react differently than most would in other places. Do you report all OC's to the police as a possible mass shooting about to happen? Domestic violence happens everywhere not just at a bus stop. A holstered weapon is not threatening in an of itself. If you see someone arguing and they have a gun in hand then I would commend your actions.

I have yet to see parents rushing there kids out of the restaurant when I walk in. Most kids are not distressed at the sight of a gun unless there parents make them afraid. I don't see the logic of reacting that extremely in that situation.

And I do have kids and would not want you to drive off a couple stops down the road because you saw a man with a holstered gun.

+REP

 

[yepthatsme]

Seems to me, if people are that shaken or intimidated by seeing a person OC-ing in public, then more of us should be OC-ing so that the uninformed become accustomed to it.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I know of bus drivers who are retired policemen. It is totally legal for them to carry. It is against school district policy however.

The legalty is the reality that a retired leo won't be bothered unless he uses the firearm and instead of solving a problem, he causes more problems.

Seems your two posts are different. The first states it's legal for retired LEO, the next that they just won't be arrested for it. Which is it?

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

It seems that he is no different than the sheep that are scared at the sight of a gun and run and hide or call the police to take care of it. You are using the bus stop or kids as an excuse to react differently than most would in other places. Do you report all OC's to the police as a possible mass shooting about to happen? Domestic violence happens everywhere not just at a bus stop. A holstered weapon is not threatening in an of itself. If you see someone arguing and they have a gun in hand then I would commend your actions.

I have yet to see parents rushing there kids out of the restaurant when I walk in. Most kids are not distressed at the sight of a gun unless there parents make them afraid. I don't see the logic of reacting that extremely in that situation.

And I do have kids and would not want you to drive off a couple stops down the road because you saw a man with a holstered gun.

Repped. Good post.