Active shooter at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas...

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  • JAL

    Master
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    0   0   0
    May 14, 2017
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    Cheaper Than Dirt has no Bump/Slide Fire stocks for sale now. Midway USA has none in stock. IMHO the days for them are numbered. The question will be the extent of unintended consequences will be inflicted by those writing the legislation who have no clue about firearms, or who want to deliberately inflict additional consequences by sliding them through as part of it (one more step toward their total disarmament agenda). I do not see opposition to a ban on bump/slide fire mechanisms by members of Congress as politically defensible, especially in light of the 1986 automatic arms legislation. A congressman or senator attempting to do so with any vigor faces a Sisyphean task that could be political suicide. I hope the NRA and others with recognized and respected expertise will be able to shape any legislation proposed to prevent unintended consequences.

    I expect an enormous push from the anti-gun element of the left to put high capacity magazines onto the chopping block as well. Once the can of worms for gun legislation is opened, there will be a push from the extreme end of them to do as much as possible to effectively ban all firearms and implement a nationwide confiscation to enforce it. It will become a vitriolic battle further polarizing the country into extreme political camps with no middle ground. Personally, I'm cringing at the acrimonious rancor that will ensue.

    YouTube videos have already been posted with instructions for circumventing whatever bump/slide stock laws are passed without waiting for them to be banned. It's a function of click bait to maximize views and monetized channel revenue. It's a scoreboard. He who has the most subscribers and video views wins. California has been in a Mad Magazine Spy vs. Spy like war trying to prevent people from being able to change rifle magazines. Everything they come up with is eventually circumvented by gunsmiths.

    John
     

    223 Gunner

    Master
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    203   0   0
    Jan 7, 2009
    4,446
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    Red Sector A
    JAL, I have noticed an influx of slide/bump fire stocks for sale as well as binary triggers. As gun owners we often don't do ourselves any favors.

    Much like the left that "never let a good tragedy go to waste" to further their agenda. Some in "our" camp do the same, with "oh boy I can get rich" selling stocks and triggers based on a perceived fear that they will be made illegal.
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
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    4   0   0
    Jan 14, 2009
    6,396
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    and in general, when I have called 4473s a registration, "ingo" has shot it down... because I guess it being hard to use and on paper and incomplete makes it less of a registry. I argue it just makes it a poor one...

    Gun shop sells to Joe Bob.
    I get in touch with Joe Bob and ask what he did with the gun. He says he traded it in at Gunz Shack.
    I go to Gunz Shack, they show they sold it to Timmy.
    I go to Timmy...

    Etc. etc. It's more often then not a dry well, but it does sometimes come in handy. In something like this shooting, not so much. But the more mundane 4 mopes in a car, a gun in the center console, everybody playing "ain't my gun...I got felonies" then you find Mope B's girlfriend was the purchaser.

    Nope, not a registry. Not at all.

    I typed registry into google. Here's what it returned:
    reg·is·try
    noun
    noun: registry; plural noun: registries

    • 1.
      a place or office where registers or records are kept.



    FFL's boxes of 4473s? Registry.
    Boxes of 4473s turned in to ATF? Registry.

    Easy to use? No. All in one central location? No. Complete? Not even close.
    Gets you the same results as a 'National Registration' scheme? Sometimes.

    You used records from the registries to prove mope B came into possession of the gun through his GF. w/o said registry, you couldn't have linked the gun to mope B. right? Or what else am I missing?

    -rvb
     

    jayhawk

    Expert
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    3   0   0
    Jul 16, 2009
    1,194
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    Fort Wayne, IN
    Without getting defensive, is there a way to communicate to them why restricting firearms isn't the right course of action? Without playing politics, without name-calling, without broad answers ("FREEDOM!")... how do you explain to these Americans that otherwise don't care about guns... why the guns aren't the problem?

    I think in general it benefits all citizens to fight for individual liberty and the health of our democracy. Tbh, I think gun rights are safer than a lot of other aspects of democracy right now...but of course, the 2nd still deserves attention. We live in a world where talking points are becoming dumbed down and homogenized. The things being talked about in the news and on social media often completely miss the fundamental debate and instead turn into black/white, right vs wrong pissing contests (or complete pointlessness, "was that tweet appropriate or not"). We need to encourage debate, we need to be able to view things from multiple viewpoints, we need to have the ability to recognize and decipher rhetoric. Our most potent weapons are our minds, and we need to use our minds to encourage each other to debate and discuss more intelligently and to fight for our individual power as citizens. The 2nd amendment is one facet of that, it is a piece of the whole that both liberals and conservatives, should be fighting to preserve.

    Why are guns not the problem? They are fundamental to our system of democracy and individual liberty. We have some major cultural problems, and I think a lot of those problems revolve around the flow and dissemination of information and knowledge.
     
    Last edited:

    Denny347

    Grandmaster
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    21   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    13,559
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    Slidefire stocks looks to be sold out about everywhere online. People buying them up or you vendors pulling them down?

    One on gunbroker now up to $600 with two days to go....

    I have met the enemy and he is us.....


    http://www.gunbroker.com/item/704328183

    Buy it Now for $799.99

    Cracks me up. People are ASSuming that there will be a grandfather clause if these are banned...seems unlikely. They will have paid/overpaid for something they will not be able to use.
     

    dusty88

    Master
    Local Business Supporter
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    2   0   0
    Aug 11, 2014
    3,179
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    United States
    I've posted the message below on FB three times now over the past few years when something like this occurs. All you really need to do is walk them through the logical conclusion of their goals and sprinkle in some undeniable truths. Don't be surprised if no one wants to engage you in civil discourse, no one ever has with me.

    I typically try to avoid political discussions here as they rarely end without someone getting their feelings hurt. The gun control topic is my personal “hot button” because I cannot understand the logic from the other side unless I want to simply ignore some very basic, very simple facts. Whenever we have a lunatic cut loose like we did in San Bernardino we get to hear the talking heads spouting their side of the argument. I’m opening this up for anyone who wishes to have honest, respectful discourse on the issue. I will do my very best not to be condescending or rude and hope anyone who chooses to comment will do the same. I would also like to preface this by stating that I am not advocating for less controls than we currently have in place. I do not feel that the current precautions are unreasonable regardless of how the 2nd Amendment is worded. Unfortunately the nature of our society and the world has changed significantly since it was written. All that said, here are the facts as I see them.

    1. Laws do not prevent crime.
    What happened in Paris and in San Bernardino was illegal with or without the use of firearms. Murder is illegal as is attempted murder and that fact does not deter someone who has decided to go down that path. The status of the murder weapon does not influence the murderer one way or the other.


    2. Prohibition does not eradicate that which is prohibited.
    The prohibition on alcohol was a massive failure in this country. The prohibition of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin and marijuana has been even more so. You can find all sorts of numbers on it but its safe to say this country has spent well in excess of a trillion dollars attempting to prevent its citizens from consuming these substances. These illegal substances are more prevalent today than they were when the were deemed unlawful to possess. A prohibition on handguns in Chicago, Washington DC and New York City have not resulted in the disappearance of handguns.
    Prohibiting semi automatic rifles, handguns or shotguns will not make them disappear. They are here and they are here to stay. Millions and millions of these firearms have been in the possession of law abiding citizens for decades with no negative effect on society. Would we have fewer gun related deaths if they did not exist? Quite possibly but that is never going to happen. Chasing that dream is a complete and total waste of time as proven by our experiences with alcohol and illegal narcotics.


    3. Obtaining firearms through lawful means is not “easy”.
    Buying a gallon of milk is easy. Legally purchasing a gun from a licensed dealer whether at a gun store or at a gun show requires the purchaser to show state issued identification, fill out a form and have a criminal background check conducted on that person before they can walk out with that firearm. Is this going to stop gun crime? Not by a long shot but I don’t believe it is unreasonable to take this basic precaution.
    The private sale of firearms (in Indiana) is lawful provided the seller is not knowingly selling to someone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm. This can occur at a gun show (and undoubtedly does) but it can also occur in a Walmart parking lot. There is no requirement for a bill of sale, receipt or any other record of the transaction to be completed or maintained by either party.


    4. Making guns illegal will not solve any problems.
    The prohibition of illegal narcotics has our prisons packed with drug offenders. So much so that years ago we began releasing them well before they had served out their sentence. It is now widely understood that a convict can expect to serve half of their sentence.
    The problem of prison overcrowding has gotten to the point now where we no longer even bother with appropriate sentencing. I have personally had contact with well over two dozen criminals with murder convictions who were back on the streets of Indianapolis and still young enough to run from the police. Our current legal system is not a deterrent to criminals largely due to the failures of prohibition attempts and their ability to overload the system.


    5. Guns are inanimate objects, they cannot act autonomously.
    Guns are man made objects, formed of plastic and metal. They do not have feelings. They are incapable of influencing human intention. They are tools, plain and simple. They are designed to inflict damage but are easily capable of preventing it.


    6. The only reasonably successful means of defending against an armed criminal is to provide them with armed resistance.
    Firearms are hugely effective in their intended purpose. The primary reason for owning firearms for millions and millions of Americans is for self defense.

    If you accept the facts that I presented above and you still advocate for a prohibition on firearms (of any type currently legal) then you must also accept the fact that you do not believe people in this country should have the right or the means to defend themselves against a criminal attack. That is the only result which comes from banning firearms.

    These are the facts as I understand them and provides an explanation on my stance. I’m open to discussion if anyone can provide a logical argument to the contrary. I’m not interested in statistics, they are as easily corrupted as most politicians.


    Really good stuff there.

    I would perhaps add a comment about gun technology. It's had over 1000 years to advance. Individuals can make, modify, import rather easily. Those that choose to live lawfully will not violate the law, but those that choose to commit other crimes will not be hindered by gun laws. They aren't made from some rare substance that the government has control over.
     

    ArcadiaGP

    Wanderer
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Jun 15, 2009
    31,729
    113
    Indianapolis
    We need to encourage debate, we need to be able to view things from multiple viewpoints, we need to have the ability to recognize and decipher rhetoric. Our most potent weapons are our minds, and we need to use our minds to encourage each other to debate and discuss more intelligently and to fight for our individual power as citizens.

    On this point, when it comes to regular people, this is good. This is definitely what's needed. The loud, angry ones... the people in power... they don't leave any room for compromise. (Well, let me rephrase... the anti-gun group doesn't compromise. The pro-gun group has been compromising it away for years.) Reasonable discussion and debate is replaced by loud, totalitarian demands and misinformation.

    Being on the internet... sometimes it's hard to remember that quiet middle group exists... since all we see are the loud, demanding members of the other groups.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    I've posted the message below on FB three times now over the past few years when something like this occurs. All you really need to do is walk them through the logical conclusion of their goals and sprinkle in some undeniable truths. Don't be surprised if no one wants to engage you in civil discourse, no one ever has with me.

    I typically try to avoid political discussions here as they rarely end without someone getting their feelings hurt. The gun control topic is my personal “hot button” because I cannot understand the logic from the other side unless I want to simply ignore some very basic, very simple facts. Whenever we have a lunatic cut loose like we did in San Bernardino we get to hear the talking heads spouting their side of the argument. I’m opening this up for anyone who wishes to have honest, respectful discourse on the issue. I will do my very best not to be condescending or rude and hope anyone who chooses to comment will do the same. I would also like to preface this by stating that I am not advocating for less controls than we currently have in place. I do not feel that the current precautions are unreasonable regardless of how the 2nd Amendment is worded. Unfortunately the nature of our society and the world has changed significantly since it was written. All that said, here are the facts as I see them.

    1. Laws do not prevent crime.
    What happened in Paris and in San Bernardino was illegal with or without the use of firearms. Murder is illegal as is attempted murder and that fact does not deter someone who has decided to go down that path. The status of the murder weapon does not influence the murderer one way or the other.


    2. Prohibition does not eradicate that which is prohibited.
    The prohibition on alcohol was a massive failure in this country. The prohibition of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin and marijuana has been even more so. You can find all sorts of numbers on it but its safe to say this country has spent well in excess of a trillion dollars attempting to prevent its citizens from consuming these substances. These illegal substances are more prevalent today than they were when the were deemed unlawful to possess. A prohibition on handguns in Chicago, Washington DC and New York City have not resulted in the disappearance of handguns.
    Prohibiting semi automatic rifles, handguns or shotguns will not make them disappear. They are here and they are here to stay. Millions and millions of these firearms have been in the possession of law abiding citizens for decades with no negative effect on society. Would we have fewer gun related deaths if they did not exist? Quite possibly but that is never going to happen. Chasing that dream is a complete and total waste of time as proven by our experiences with alcohol and illegal narcotics.


    3. Obtaining firearms through lawful means is not “easy”.
    Buying a gallon of milk is easy. Legally purchasing a gun from a licensed dealer whether at a gun store or at a gun show requires the purchaser to show state issued identification, fill out a form and have a criminal background check conducted on that person before they can walk out with that firearm. Is this going to stop gun crime? Not by a long shot but I don’t believe it is unreasonable to take this basic precaution.
    The private sale of firearms (in Indiana) is lawful provided the seller is not knowingly selling to someone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm. This can occur at a gun show (and undoubtedly does) but it can also occur in a Walmart parking lot. There is no requirement for a bill of sale, receipt or any other record of the transaction to be completed or maintained by either party.


    4. Making guns illegal will not solve any problems.
    The prohibition of illegal narcotics has our prisons packed with drug offenders. So much so that years ago we began releasing them well before they had served out their sentence. It is now widely understood that a convict can expect to serve half of their sentence.
    The problem of prison overcrowding has gotten to the point now where we no longer even bother with appropriate sentencing. I have personally had contact with well over two dozen criminals with murder convictions who were back on the streets of Indianapolis and still young enough to run from the police. Our current legal system is not a deterrent to criminals largely due to the failures of prohibition attempts and their ability to overload the system.


    5. Guns are inanimate objects, they cannot act autonomously.
    Guns are man made objects, formed of plastic and metal. They do not have feelings. They are incapable of influencing human intention. They are tools, plain and simple. They are designed to inflict damage but are easily capable of preventing it.


    6. The only reasonably successful means of defending against an armed criminal is to provide them with armed resistance.
    Firearms are hugely effective in their intended purpose. The primary reason for owning firearms for millions and millions of Americans is for self defense.

    If you accept the facts that I presented above and you still advocate for a prohibition on firearms (of any type currently legal) then you must also accept the fact that you do not believe people in this country should have the right or the means to defend themselves against a criminal attack. That is the only result which comes from banning firearms.

    These are the facts as I understand them and provides an explanation on my stance. I’m open to discussion if anyone can provide a logical argument to the contrary. I’m not interested in statistics, they are as easily corrupted as most politicians.

    This should be the lead story.

    If you did all of that from your phone I am doubly impressed.
     

    Brad69

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Jul 16, 2016
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    Has INGO solved the crime yet?

    If after the Newtown with the Democratic Party in charge of everything nothing was passed I think we are good on confiscation.

    Trigger crank and slide fire might be in trouble?
     

    phylodog

    Grandmaster
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    59   0   0
    Mar 7, 2008
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    Arcadia
    This should be the lead story.

    If you did all of that from your phone I am doubly impressed.

    I did not, that's way too long for me to manage on a phone. I'd like to make some changes but I've decided to leave it in its original version, its pretty long winded as it is.
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    11   0   0
    Jun 15, 2009
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    This should be the lead story.

    If you did all of that from your phone I am doubly impressed.

    As logical as it is, and as much sense that it makes to all of us... It won't make a dent unless those ideas are being expressed by someone with a following.

    The Jimmy Kimmels, Jon Stewarts, Stephen Colberts, and John Olivers of the world are where the TV-viewing public get their information on how to think. There aren't a lot of loud pro-gun role models that haven't been put into the "crazy nutjob" category (Ted Nugent, for example)

    ... Huh. Sort of recognizing all these people got their starts on Comedy Central...

    Young Me: What's the future like?
    Current Me: Ben Stein's sidekick is fighting with the guy that had a cameo in Home Alone.
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    11   0   0
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    Representative Bill Flores (R-Texas) just called for a ban on bumpfire stocks. Flores, himself, is a gun owner. Lot of tweets calling this common sense...

    NY Post journo Seth Mandel: "Pro-gun folks should want this too. If it passes, it shows that a focus on mechanics, not scary looks, of guns is what matters."
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
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    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
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    Mods, You can disable my Log In at any time. After this excuse for a discussion, I won’t be back!
    Don’t bother with snotty responses, I wont see them.

    OK. After further review I will grant your wish.
    As you stayed glued to the thread for near an hour after you grand exit I see this as no great loss to the Forum.

    Be well.
     

    AmmoManAaron

    Master
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    37   0   0
    Feb 20, 2015
    3,334
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    I-get-around
    Cracks me up. People are ASSuming that there will be a grandfather clause if these are banned...seems unlikely. They will have paid/overpaid for something they will not be able to use.

    Being paid/overpaid for firearms/accessories is something that has never happened in this country at the federal level, AFAIK, so I would think/hope that scenario is unlikely.

    My opinion, FWIW, is that legislation would make existing bumpfire stocks and gat-cranks (and possibly binary triggers) some sort of NFA registered and regulated item. Think of an amnesty registration period similar to what happened in the early 90s with certain shotguns that the ATF made Destructive Devices. The difference in this case is that legislation will have to be passed before anything happens...and the legislative process is quite messy. No one knows where this rabbit hole would go, but if logic prevails (LOL!) one would think that amnesty and registration would be the easiest path since it has been done before. God help us, this is going to be a mess if anything actually moves forward.
     

    Brad69

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    0   0   0
    Jul 16, 2016
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    Guy at work is convinced this attack is tied to the Nov 4 "purge"
    He is an avid Alex Jones follower and chews with his mouth open!
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
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    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
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    Indy Metro Area
    OK. After further review I will grant your wish.
    As you stayed glued to the thread for near an hour after you grand exit I see this as no great loss to the Forum.

    Be well.

    Since you're granting wishes. I want one with everything, including cheese but hold the lettuce.

    Do you have fries?
     

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