2016 centerfire deer rifle push?

[Restroyer]

Hearing some folks claim that they never get a shot at deer farther than 70 yards obviously never heard of the term "bean field rifle," which is an apt description for where I ordinarily hunt, on my aunt's land, which consists of a woods of about 20 acres surrounded by fields of about 200 acres.[/QUOTE]

Pink, you are twisting my words. I don't "claim" that i never get a shot at farther than 70 yds. - its a fact due to where I hunt on my own land. If I had a bean field then it might be different. Obviously I recognize that Indiana terrain varies, as stated by me when I asked the question I said: " I ask the question because where I hunt in SE Indiana everything is thick brush. I can't see more than 65 yards because of the honeysuckle and briars and I hunt from a ground blind and locate it where I will have several shooting lanes and I use .357 rifles and I still kill deer. I adapt to my location and for me a longer range gun would have no benefit to me. I understand other areas in Indiana might provide the possibility of longer shots but then comes the argument of those who say the open spaces allows for more danger for longer bullet travel. So just wondering how many of you would benefit by taking more deer in your hunting location with a HPR?

 

[oldpink]

Hearing some folks claim that they never get a shot at deer farther than 70 yards obviously never heard of the term "bean field rifle," which is an apt description for where I ordinarily hunt, on my aunt's land, which consists of a woods of about 20 acres surrounded by fields of about 200 acres.

Pink, you are twisting my words. I don't "claim" that i never get a shot at farther than 70 yds. - its a fact due to where I hunt on my own land. If I had a bean field then it might be different. Obviously I recognize that Indiana terrain varies, as stated by me when I asked the question I said: " I ask the question because where I hunt in SE Indiana everything is thick brush. I can't see more than 65 yards because of the honeysuckle and briars and I hunt from a ground blind and locate it where I will have several shooting lanes and I use .357 rifles and I still kill deer. I adapt to my location and for me a longer range gun would have no benefit to me. I understand other areas in Indiana might provide the possibility of longer shots but then comes the argument of those who say the open spaces allows for more danger for longer bullet travel. So just wondering how many of you would benefit by taking more deer in your hunting location with a HPR?[/QUOTE]

Uh, I never said that you claim that you never get shots at deer beyond 70 yards, and I understood that you were asking a legit question and not arguing one way or the other.
There are others who have said that repeatedly, though.
I've shot three deer, all from the same place, the first at about 65-75 yards, the second at no more than twenty feet, and the third at about 5o yards.
I've had to just stare at the deer loitering at the 200+ yard distance, though.

 

[Willie]

North American Hunting, Outdoors With Don Home

 

[Dirty Steve]

Just my thoughts, but it seemed ironic that the article was followed up by one on coyote hunting with a photograph of a hunter with a HPR. Seems to me that the author would have followed it up with a story on coyote hunting with a slug gun or muzzleloader since HPR's are just too dangerous for sportsmen outside of State representative district 74 to use. Maybe there should have been a test season on allowing HPR's for predator control first.

Dirty Steve

 

[oldpink]

Just my thoughts, but it seemed ironic that the article was followed up by one on coyote hunting with a photograph of a hunter with a HPR. Seems to me that the author would have followed it up with a story on coyote hunting with a slug gun or muzzleloader since HPR's are just too dangerous for sportsmen outside of State representative district 74 to use. Maybe there should have been a test season on allowing HPR's for predator control first.

Dirty Steve

Don't you understand that the likes of .270, .243, .30-06, 7mm RM, and .30-378 Weatherby are safe and acceptable for predators, but magically transmogrify into rifles far too dangerous for deer, at least in Indiana only?
Also, those calibers and all other HPR calibers are perfectly safe in handguns for deer, but -- again -- too dangerous for deer when a butt stock and 16.25" or longer barrel is added, at least in Indiana only.
There's also something unique about Indiana's a socio-economics -- apparently because many of those who originally came here decades ago did so for jobs in the manufacturing sector -- that makes Hoosiers too stupid to be able to safely use longarms chambered in standard centerfire calibers, quite unlike the hunters in Michigan, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, -- all states where (apparently) there has been no history of the manufacturing sector attracting workers into said states -- doncha know.

 

[Hookeye]

Just my thoughts, but it seemed ironic that the article was followed up by one on coyote hunting with a photograph of a hunter with a HPR. Seems to me that the author would have followed it up with a story on coyote hunting with a slug gun or muzzleloader since HPR's are just too dangerous for sportsmen outside of State representative district 74 to use. Maybe there should have been a test season on allowing HPR's for predator control first.

Dirty Steve

Varmint bullets for varmint hunting.
Coyote hunters lesser in number and dispersed over larger areas of ground.
Deer hunters tend to congregate.

If you want HP rifle for deer, then put forth a better argument.

The coyote thing doesn't work.

 

[Hookeye]

Most varmint folks run .17 to .25 cal rifles, and employ frangible bullets.
Sure some use deer bullets or FMJ from boomers.......those people are pretty much clueless, and would pose risk if allowed to run such gear on deer.

I have shot groundhogs with .35 Whelen. 250 gr as hot as we could load them (approaching .338 Winmag velocity).
Sure as frick didn't run it across a bean field. Nope, we woods hunted, private ground, with substantial backstops (hunted low area, ridge with dens at the bottom).
Blasted a decent chuck behind the shoulder, bullet went through it, and a 2" diameter tree a foot or so past it, and into the hill.
The ridge/hill.............if going by the 45 degree slope..........was maybe 75 yards along the hypotenuse.

Den was maybe 6 ft from the base.

Safe shot, on varmint, with deer rig. Chuck made it up to another hole and disappeared. Not enough stuff to even slow that bullet down.
Popped another one later in the neck and was DRT.

 

[avboiler11]

Varmint bullets for varmint hunting.
Coyote hunters lesser in number and dispersed over larger areas of ground.
Deer hunters tend to congregate.

If you want HP rifle for deer, then put forth a better argument.

The coyote thing doesn't work.

Your argument seems to revolve around safety, which experience has proven to be a non-issue as demonstrated by all the neighboring and regional states that allow modern centerfire rifles for whitetail deer.

If you don't want HP rifle for deer, then put forth a better argument.

 

[MRP2003]

"Coyote hunters lesser in number and dispersed over larger areas of ground."

So if I hunt on private land of approx. 30 acres and never see another hunter, I should be allowed to use HPR.

I willing to bet that a lot of coyote hunters do not use varmit rounds.

 

[Hookeye]

Specialty pistols are odd rigs.
Most have an EER scope to use the cartridge performance.
That means the shot selection is most probably very limited.

Ever shoot an EER specialty pistol?

Takes some getting used to. A deer walking through timber at 75 yards you aint gonna offhand (and that'd be an easy rifle shot). Easy with shotgun or MZ too.
A deer on the trot? Yeah, go for it with EER handgun.

Now sitting with a tree for backrest, shooting sticks...........and a 7mm 08 Striker..............one could drop deer out a ways.
Or if in a blind with a bench.

Treestand with rail would help, but then it's still awkward..........specialty pistols are.

Know a guy that runs an Encore in .300 winmag. From box blind w heater and tripod. Also runs a Bad Bull MZ...............300 yard shots he can do.
Shot types however are very static.

Specialty pistols are IMHO, specialty tools. Used by specialists. The advantages they may offer come with some serious drawbacks.

The deer I took last yr was easy with my .35 Rem rifle (less than 75 yards). I'd have dumped him with a shotgun just as easily.
Had I been toting my dad's Striker or a Contender pistol I'd have never gotten a shot.

The platform is of great influence, moreso than the cartridge IMHO.

So the argument of what is legal cartridge wise alone, sucks.

 

[Hookeye]

If you want HP rifle for deer, simply put forth a solid argument and stop the "squirrel in a tree with .30-06, coyote hunting or specialty pistol" nonsense.

Those simply are not valid.

Find something legit and leverage that.

Using the above arguments to me means one doesn't know WTF they are talking about.
And THAT supports my claim that the avg deer hunter is clueless.

If one doesn't understand the game, the gear..........I don't expect them to understand other things, like restraint/safety.

 

[Hookeye]

"Coyote hunters lesser in number and dispersed over larger areas of ground."

So if I hunt on private land of approx. 30 acres and never see another hunter, I should be allowed to use HPR.

I willing to bet that a lot of coyote hunters do not use varmit rounds.

The new tacticool dipsh*ts and avg deer hunter taking a poke at Wile E.............maybe.
Serious varminters use the right stuff.

Even those who are new who want to do it right, use the correct bullet.
Information age, plenty of varmint mags/shows now..........there is no reason for a person to use the wrong gear.

HP rifle and non varmint bullets can work, but for safety's sake, are limiting in shot selection.

 

[Hookeye]

Had some deer hunting moron at work, talk about .243 .243 .243

putting forth the legal for yote should mean legal for deer.

I had to tell Mr.know it all about bullet differences.
He NEVER heard of a varmint bullet.

Told him my 70 gr Nosler BT..........would sometimes puff dirt if I shot a chuck in the throat (puff on other side) but a body shot, from 50 to 350 yards would show no exit.

Saw him start to form the word "Bullsh*t".
But I cut him off.

35 yrs of killing chucks with .243 and this SOB is gonna call me a liar?
He might still think it, but he sure as frick didn't say it.

Clueless.

I'd put him as being the avg deer hunter. Well maybe not, he has the new 4x4 truck and quad stuff.

 

[avboiler11]

Gotta love the circular argument here...

Those opposed to HPRs telling those in favor of them to "find a legit argument and leverage it", while failing abysmally to do so themselves with their con argument...which is based solely on opinion and emotion instead of, I dunno, evidence from surrounding states?

How about cutting the disarmist-style socioeconomic class warfare BS and make an argument why rifles should NOT be allowed, rather than "there are already plenty of available choices".

 

[avboiler11]

Why rifles should be allowed for deer:

1. There is no public or hunter safety issue, as evidenced by years and decades of them being legal in states in this region, states with similar population density, and states with similar topography mix.

2. Concern about magazine capacity or bullet style can be addressed via policy; see #1 and reference Kentucky for a rather topical example.

3. There is no issue with deer population that cannot be addressed with shorter season and/or tag controls; using equipment to control harvest is a very poor, variable substitute for bag limits.

4. It will draw more/newer people into a sport that, let's face it, has a declining participant population dominated largely by aging white men.

5. The logical disconnect between allowing certain calibers to be used for deer in a 15" handgun, but not a 16" rifle. Sorry, number of participants using such doesn't cut it, it is either a safe/legal/approved caliber or it isn't.

6. That pesky "freedom of choice" thing.

 

[Hookeye]

To the decent sized land hunter, such reg changes may not show influence.
To the smaller parcel/patchwork hunters it might.

There will be pluses and minuses.

Pass the friggin deal and when your spot goes to sheite, or gets sold, or the lease price gets too expensive..........choke on it.

 

[Woobie]

If you want HP rifle for deer, simply put forth a solid argument and stop the "squirrel in a tree with .30-06, coyote hunting or specialty pistol" nonsense.

Those simply are not valid.

Find something legit and leverage that.

Using the above arguments to me means one doesn't know WTF they are talking about.
And THAT supports my claim that the avg deer hunter is clueless.

If one doesn't understand the game, the gear..........I don't expect them to understand other things, like restraint/safety.

1. HPR are known to be highly effective at humanely killing dear.

2. In worst case ricochet scenarios, HPR bullets travel shorter distances than slugs, and only marginally more than modern muzzle loader projectiles. Faster, smaller projectiles are also more likely to break up on impact than slow, heavy ones. All this has been said before with sources cited.

3. HPR are used in other states in areas with similar population densities and topography to Indiana with no difference in hunter injury statistics.

4. HPR are legal for use in Indiana for almost every other type of game, except the one for which they possibly are best suited.

5. HPR are safely fired at recreational ranges every day in Indiana.

6. Deer populations are not at any sort of risk in states allowing HPR's.

None of these arguments are about squirrels in trees. All of them have been made in this and other thread, often with studies such as military ballistic studies, biologists research, and government published injury data cited. The argument has been made, but brick walls don't have ears. I would love to see some reputable sources cited making the counterpoint. That is something we haven't seen. All we get is "hunters are idiots" and "rifles bullets will ricochet, causing mass casualty events everywhere." I'll be waiting for facts.

 

[Streck-Fu]

It's pretty clear Hookeye will not accept any evidence and is intent on maintaining his argument for the sake of being contrary. Troll status confirmed.

 

[Woobie]

To the decent sized land hunter, such reg changes may not show influence.
To the smaller parcel/patchwork hunters it might.

There will be pluses and minuses.

Pass the friggin deal and when your spot goes to sheite, or gets sold, or the lease price gets too expensive..........choke on it.

I will gladly choke on freedom. That's like choking on bacon.

 

[oldpink]

1. HPR are known to be highly effective at humanely killing dear.

2. In worst case ricochet scenarios, HPR bullets travel shorter distances than slugs, and only marginally more than modern muzzle loader projectiles. Faster, smaller projectiles are also more likely to break up on impact than slow, heavy ones. All this has been said before with sources cited.

3. HPR are used in other states in areas with similar population densities and topography to Indiana with no difference in hunter injury statistics.

4. HPR are legal for use in Indiana for almost every other type of game, except the one for which they possibly are best suited.

5. HPR are safely fired at recreational ranges every day in Indiana.

6. Deer populations are not at any sort of risk in states allowing HPR's.

None of these arguments are about squirrels in trees. All of them have been made in this and other thread, often with studies such as military ballistic studies, biologists research, and government published injury data cited. The argument has been made, but brick walls don't have ears. I would love to see some reputable sources cited making the counterpoint. That is something we haven't seen. All we get is "hunters are idiots" and "rifles bullets will ricochet, causing mass casualty events everywhere." I'll be waiting for facts.

Stop with the rationality, already.
In response, expect to get lots of words that disguise what's really going on, this ->