20 or 12 ga shotgun for home defense?

[shooter521]

I suppose I don't buy this argument.

Of course you don't.

It strikes me that the 20 has a real life tactical advantage over the 12 for family home defense use.

For the rather specific scenario you laid out - a person who wants to run a stock gun (what about adding things that could improve it for the HD mission, such as a tritium front sight, white light or spare ammo carrier?) and is content to shoot less than 50 rounds a year through it (which precludes any sort of meaningful training or practice) - maybe it does. For ANYTHING beyond that, availability and pricing come into play, and work against the 20ga in a big way.

 

[Gungho_1989]

One other item to consider, what is one of the most important things we can hang on any gun?? come on i know you know.....
A light.
This is where the aftermarket missed the boat on the 20ga We have some options that we can Make/modify to work but there is nothing specific as of yet.
I do Agree the 20 Ga is a great choice for home defense but I m not ready to say its any where near superior to the 12 I sell a few items for the 20's and really liked the concept as well as the "possible' Advantages but time will tell.
I still think that Ammo choice is an issue. :o)

Ahhh I cannot type nor spell today!!!

 

[melensdad]

Of course you don't.

Well I laid out a whole lot of logic that seems to at least provide a very strong case against what you posted.

For the rather specific scenario you laid out - a person who wants to run a stock gun (what about adding things that could improve it for the HD mission, such as a tritium front sight, white light or spare ammo carrier?) and is content to shoot less than 50 rounds a year through it . . .

I'm sorry but maybe you didn't read what I wrote?

I didn't say it had to be left stock, I even said it could be built up custom. Go back and read the post. But once its done don't keep modifying it and changing it because every modification will require new and different training for use. Build it up however you want, then train your family with it.

As for less than 50 rounds a year, I didn't say that either, I said buy 10 to 12 boxes, and said buy it yearly. At 25 rounds a box, that is a minimum of 250 rounds.

For those of us who reload, its actually cheaper. Training doesn't require factory Buckshot.

Yes, cost comes into play for rounds but not that much. If a box costs $5 more, that is only $50 to $60 per year (10 to 12 boxes), which is only $4 or $5 per month. You are sounding like the guy who wants to buy the discount parachute.

 

[shooter521]

I didn't say it had to be left stock, I even said it could be built up custom.

You said the availability of parts and accessories doesn't matter. How can you build something up custom, when there are no parts to be had that will fit or can easily be made to fit?

As for less than 50 rounds a year, I didn't say that either, I said buy 10 to 12 boxes, and said buy it yearly. At 25 rounds a box, that is a minimum of 250 rounds.

Except that the #3 Buck loads from Federal and Winchester only come in 5-round boxes. 10 boxes a year (assuming you buy 12 boxes and want to have 2 left over for Zombie work) is 50 rounds. But even 250 rounds a year is less than optimum - it's not even enough to get through a 3-day shotgun course, nevermind additional sustainment training on your own. And don't forget to multiply your ammo requirement by however many people would potentially be operating the gun in a defensive situation (you mentioned keeping "the family" familiar with it), and watch the cost difference between 20ga and 12ga add up.

Training doesn't require factory Buckshot.

IMO it does if that's what you plan to keep in it for HD purposes. "Train like you will fight," and all that. But then, we probably (obviously?) disagree there, too.

 

[pudly]

If you aren't concerned about the Knoxx stock, you can get it considerably cheaper. I got this exact model at PSS and am very happy with it: Remington Model 870™ Express® Synthetic 7-Round

The commenters are correct about fewer add-ons being available, but if you want solid home defense, how much more do you need than possibly a side-saddle and light? I'm not even sure that fancy sights add very much at close quarters. I didn't find #3 buckshot hard to find at all. I've purchased some online and some from Gander Mountain and Bradis locally. I'm wondering about the wisdom of slugs that have been mentioned when wall penetration is a concern.

 

[Joe Williams]

I prefer the 20 guage for the simple reason that I like shooting the 20 guage, and dislike shooting the 12 guage.

Course, my wife and son have the only shotguns in the house right now. Both are 20 guages, my wife's a single shot, and my son's Mossberg 500 Bantam Youth, which with 5 rounds of 00 buckshot seems a plenty adequate HD gun, especially when backed up with a handgun or one of our Marlin lever carbines.

We haven't had any trouble finding 00 buck for the gun.

Mossberg has a neat 20 guage turkey gun that I think would be just the ticket for a hunting/fun and games/HD shotgun that I'd really like to have.

 

[Jack Ryan]

OK I know that all the nifty tactical shotguns are 12 gauge guns, so the burly manly men will probably give knee jerk reactions and say that the whimpy 20 gauge is the wrong answer here . . .

BUT

. . . for those open minded enough to listen, I have to wonder if the 12 gauge is wrong and the 20 gauge is really the better choice for a home defense gun.

From one end to the other of the average home I just don't think it makes a bit of difference. Across any room I've ever stood in in a private home, I guarantee a shot from one or the other is going to make no difference to any one on the recieving end.

The type of ammunition will make the difference.

That said, I don't see any reason for any other than 12 guage to even exist. Only reason for buying a 20 or 410 can be accomplished by purchasing the appropriate 12 guage ammunition and just tipping the cashier an equal amount.

 

[pudly]

You might want to checkout The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing. They do lots of practical ballistics testing. This link is very good in discussing 20 gauge effectiveness: The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 1

 

[melensdad]

You might want to checkout The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing. They do lots of practical ballistics testing. This link is very good in discussing 20 gauge effectiveness: The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 1

thanks. That seems to confirm the other information I reviewed with regard to the effectiveness of the 20 gauge and also seems to confirm it will only be a moderate risk for overpenetration. The info provided does seem to conflict with 12 gauge info provided by Massad Ayoob and his Lethal Force Institute where he suggests very strongly 12 gauge OO buck will easily pass through a bad guy and a couple walls too.

 

[zcam630]

Here's an idea. 20ga for your wife and daughter, 12ga for you. Solves every issue, and now you have two guns instead of one. :-)

I like this logic. I think I will have to try and use this on my wife.

 

[00BlasterResto]

I keep a 870 Remy with an 18" and 00 buck , mines the wood stock which I prefer on every thing

 

[zcam630]

Not to get off topic but this whole debate make me think of another question.

For HD purposes is shooting from the shoulder or just a pistol grip at your side be better? The reason I ask, is that I'm leaning towards getting a shoty for HD that is more tactical minded than my hunting shoty. My thought process is getting something that 1. will do the job and 2. my wife feels comfortable with and will be able to handle.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcomed.

MODS, if this needs to be moved, please do. I don't want to step on any toes.

 

[Rookie]

Shooting from the shoulder gives you better control and a better ability to return to target.

 

[melensdad]

The reason I ask, is that I'm leaning towards getting a shoty for HD that is more tactical minded than my hunting shoty. My thought process is getting something that 1. will do the job and 2. my wife feels comfortable with and will be able to handle.

People have been known to raise up the pistol grip only shotguns to eye level and pull the trigger . . . and lose some teeth, badly bruise their face, etc. If you get a pistol grip shorty, don't try to use it like a regular shotgun where you line up the sights with the receiver only a couple inches from your face. JMO

Something like the 870 Tactical with Knoxx stock may be a better option if multiple operators are in the house, it not only reduces recoil but also has an adjustable length of pull so you can shorten the overall length a bit, but as it still has the shoulder stock your chances of knocking out your own teeth are greatly reduced.

 

[cosermann]

12 gauge buckshot will travel through a half dozen walls, which is not really the best thing inside a house. 20 gauge, based on 70% energy on target will likely stop a good deal sooner.

Uh, you might want to check that out. Most 12 and 20 ga loads put out about the same velocity, the 20 ga is just shooting a lighter load of shot, hence less total "energy" (if you want to think about it that way), but I would expect the individual pellets to penetrate about the same (given same size pellets) unless there's some other effect of the "glob" of shot going on (which would diminish over distance anyway). But stray pellets of the same size fired from either a 12 or 20 I would expect to penetrate about the same. Here's a "test" too look at:

The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - Page 1

The #8 shot fired from both penetrated about the same (and is a poor defensive load, btw). After that, different shot sizes and slug sizes are used, so the "scientificness" of the results go out the window on comparing penetration, but the #3 buck from the 20 and the 00 buck from the 12 both penetrated the same number of jugs - i.e. 4. This supports my reasoned intuition, but I'd like to see more testing. Until then, I don't think there's any significant difference in penetration between the two.

Another thing to keep in mind with all this is that the weight of the gun plays a significant role. The recoil of many 20's feels about the same as many 12's because the 20's are generally lighter guns. If one doesn't keep an eye on the weight of the gun, one can end up with a setup that produces the SAME (or more) felt recoil and gives less lead on target (which is NOT what we're shooting for). If one takes a look at the following recoil table for example:

SHOTGUN RECOIL TABLE

and compares the 20 and 12 ga. lines for 1 oz, 1.125 oz, and 1.25 oz loads one will see that there's no significant difference in recoil between the two guages (and the 20 ga. 1 oz. load actually recoils more!). Why? Because the hypothetical 20 ga. gun in the table is 1 pound lighter than the 12 gauge gun.

That said, it's possible to come up with a nice 20 ga setup. Just keep an eye on gun weight.
If one is considering the Rem 870 20 ga youth, http://www.tanksrifleshop.com/
has nifty accessories for the smaller frame Remingtons, such as mag tube extensions.

However, fitting out a 12 ga with recoil reducing "accessories" and or moving from a pump to an auto can have just as much effect on reducing felt recoil while putting more lead on target.

The 20 gauge isn't around because it necessarily reduces recoil. The 20s have their place in large part because they are generally lighter field guns to carry around and destroy less meat (from a hunting perspective) while being just as effective in taking the game for which they're used.

The fit of the gun affects felt recoil too, but this post is already too long!

 

[henry0reilly]

I'm fairly new here but this question has been asked and answered at least a hundred times on another gun forum I've belonged to for years. 20 gauge pump is always the home defense gun of choice.

 

[GhostofWinter]

HOLY thread resurrection!!

 

[malern28us]

Well I like the way you think but will have to say that there are some other issues to consider.

As noted in the 1st post, the 20 gauge puts roughly 70% of the energy into the target, that means it will also put 70% of the energy into the wall if there is a missed shot. 12 gauge buckshot will travel through a half dozen walls, which is not really the best thing inside a house. 20 gauge, based on 70% energy on target will likely stop a good deal sooner.

Further, at close range both will punch a series of holes clean through a zombie, but the 12 gauge can probably punch those holes and then punch holes through a wall and then inflict damage on an innocent in an adjacent room. The 20 gauge would likely stop in the wall, or at least lose enough energy to make it less than lethal in the next room.

I keep seeing 70% of the terminal energy. This is merely due to less mass(less pellets.)
This is no guarantee that the fewer, same size pellets wont go through. There will just be less of them

 

[booey50]

HOLY thread resurrection!!

I know right!!!!

 

[Zoub]

HOLY thread resurrection Batman!!

Fixed it for you