2 NYPD Officers Murdered. Possible Revenge Attack

[churchmouse]

I might just act on that tip

I have been thinking how I can get a couple dozen Longs fresh and hot on Christmas morning. I know the owner but not sure he will cooperate.

 

[chipbennett]

Would one of you LEOs explain the idea that a person resisting arrest has to be taken down hard and fast, ala Garner in NYC? I fully understand the officer safety angle if you're 1) semi-evenly matched, i.e. one-on-one; 2) a real threat of a hidden weapon that might be accessed if an arrest drags on too long, etc. In Garner's case LE had the advantage in numbers, there didn't appear to be a weapon on him and he was so grossly obese that it would seem apparent that he shouldn't spend much time on the ground like a beached whale. I would put him in the same category as a person with a handicap or someone advanced in age. In other words why couldn't he just be waited out, so to speak?

I'm not an LEO, but: Garner was what? 6'4", 350 pounds? How else do you put cuffs on someone of his size who is physically refusing to allow himself to be cuffed?

Leaving him on the ground after restraining him? Yeah, that was wrong. And the EMS personnel not lifting a finger to attend to him? That was wrong, too. But I have zero problem whatsoever with the takedown to restrain him in the first place.

 

[Que]

Do parents not teach their children these things anymore? I was taught these things growing up, and I'm not that old (middle aged? almost middle-aged?). Has our society (including the core family structure in which such things are passed on) fallen so much in such short of a time?

Kudos to you for stepping into the void.

Parents may teach it, but most do not practice it. It's a hard task to find this being practiced on social media (including INGO), the media, and some of the protests taking place. All that can be found is blame and hate-filled speech. This is the example our young people will follow.

 

[dusty88]

The fact the they refused to stand up for the grand juries after they came out with their verdicts. To state that this is our judicial process. They refused to do this, they refused to calm people down, they refused to even try and create some sense of law and order. Why? Because they politically benefit from disorder.

Exactly. It doesn't require a conspiracy of decades. It just happens to be what has always benefited the current political class.

The Garner situation left a lot of people feeling outraged, including people who normally trust police officers. The reality is that some of these things are going to happen when you send LEOs out to enforce law. Thus we as citizens are responsible for that reality and need to consider it when we support more laws, taxes, and regulation.

I don't know if many of you saw the article Frank Sharpe wrote, but I thought he did a very good job of making this point. It's Not Personal - Police and You - Monderno

 

[ArcadiaGP]

FLASHBACK: Al Sharpton's Marchers in New York City Chant "What Do We Want? Dead Cops!" - Katie Pavlich

 

[renauldo]

I'm not an LEO, but: Garner was what? 6'4", 350 pounds? How else do you put cuffs on someone of his size who is physically refusing to allow himself to be cuffed?

The "media" never shows the size difference between a normal man and Garner. He had to be more like 400lbs. He should of just surrendered and been cuffed. He killed himself resisting.

 

[chipbennett]

Parents may teach it, but most do not practice it. It's a hard task to find this being practiced on social media (including INGO), the media, and some of the protests taking place. All that can be found is blame and hate-filled speech. This is the example our young people will follow.

I guess that's why I don't have time to protest, or counter-protest, or dive into the fever swamp on Twitter: I'm spending my time working, and doing what I can to raise my girls properly.

I have this theory that World War II was a cultural turning point in our society, in that it cost the lives of so many fathers, who then were not around to help raise their children and pass on their values and character to those children. (Children need *both* parents, and are at a disadvantage in a single-parent home, whether that home is a single mother or a single father.) A generation of kids raised without the influence of the fathers of the Greatest Generation thus became the cultural disaster that was the 60s, and it only went downhill from there.

I think the root cause of problems in the black community has nothing to do with skin color or poverty, and everything to do with the breakdown of the family, and the lack of influence of fathers in the lives of their children.

My wife and I feel strongly enough about the issue that we have seriously discussed adopting, since we are done producing kids on our own. It's the kind of "if it saves the life of just one child" that I can get behind.

 

[churchmouse]

I guess that's why I don't have time to protest, or counter-protest, or dive into the fever swamp on Twitter: I'm spending my time working, and doing what I can to raise my girls properly.

I have this theory that World War II was a cultural turning point in our society, in that it cost the lives of so many fathers, who then were not around to help raise their children and pass on their values and character to those children. (Children need *both* parents, and are at a disadvantage in a single-parent home, whether that home is a single mother or a single father.) A generation of kids raised without the influence of the fathers of the Greatest Generation thus became the cultural disaster that was the 60s, and it only went downhill from there.

I think the root cause of problems in the black community has nothing to do with skin color or poverty, and everything to do with the breakdown of the family, and the lack of influence of fathers in the lives of their children.

My wife and I feel strongly enough about the issue that we have seriously discussed adopting, since we are done producing kids on our own. It's the kind of "if it saves the life of just one child" that I can get behind.

The baby boomers had a different outlook on family than their parents. Work was more plentiful and paid well. The day to day grind just to get by was loosening up. People had some money. Skilled jobs at good pay were plentiful. End result is spoiling the kids.

You hit the nail on the head. WE have no time to rally, organize, march in protest. We work our tails off. We attend school functions and have the kids in sports.

 

[churchmouse]

The "media" never shows the size difference between a normal man and Garner. He had to be more like 400lbs. He should of just surrendered and been cuffed. He killed himself resisting.

Holy crap that guy was a monster. He should have let the system work, paid his fines and fee's, paid his taxes and went on about his business.

 

[Que]

I guess that's why I don't have time to protest, or counter-protest, or dive into the fever swamp on Twitter: I'm spending my time working, and doing what I can to raise my girls properly.

I have this theory that World War II was a cultural turning point in our society, in that it cost the lives of so many fathers, who then were not around to help raise their children and pass on their values and character to those children. (Children need *both* parents, and are at a disadvantage in a single-parent home, whether that home is a single mother or a single father.) A generation of kids raised without the influence of the fathers of the Greatest Generation thus became the cultural disaster that was the 60s, and it only went downhill from there.

I think the root cause of problems in the black community has nothing to do with skin color or poverty, and everything to do with the breakdown of the family, and the lack of influence of fathers in the lives of their children.

My wife and I feel strongly enough about the issue that we have seriously discussed adopting, since we are done producing kids on our own. It's the kind of "if it saves the life of just one child" that I can get behind.

So, what's the root cause of problems in the white community?

 

[churchmouse]

So, what's the root cause of problems in the white community?

Lack of parenting............

 

[Rookie]

The same. Lack of parenting.

 

[chipbennett]

So, what's the root cause of problems in the white community?

The same thing - and I think it will be a growing problem as the family continues to break down in the white community as well.

To be clear: I'm talking about the situation we have where black people represent fewer than 15% of the population, yet commit just shy of 50% of the murders and violent crime. I think that root cause is ultimately the breakdown of the family, and the lack of fathers fulfilling their role as fathers in the lives of their children. (I think the problem is compounded by population density in urban areas - especially since in those areas, there are growing numbers of gangs* who gladly step in to fulfill that family/father-figure role.)

And if the family continues to break down (see the growing percentages of illegitimate births, and divorce) in the white community, you'll see the same thing start to bear out. Just a hunch: black people committing just shy of 50% of the nation's violent crime didn't happen in the 50s, when the black community had an incredibly strong family culture**. Give it a generation or two in the white community, and we could see the same thing happening.

* That said: if gangs can reach as far as Panola County, Mississippi, I would assume that they can reach pretty much anywhere - and the urban/rural distinction will matter less and less.

** The destruction of which is something else for which we can thank progressive ideology and policy

 

[SteveM4A1]

The same thing - and I think it will be a growing problem as the family continues to break down in the white community as well.

To be clear: I'm talking about the situation we have where black people represent fewer than 15% of the population, yet commit just shy of 50% of the murders and violent crime. I think that root cause is ultimately the breakdown of the family, and the lack of fathers fulfilling their role as fathers in the lives of their children. (I think the problem is compounded by population density in urban areas - especially since in those areas, there are growing numbers of gangs* who gladly step in to fulfill that family/father-figure role.)

And if the family continues to break down (see the growing percentages of illegitimate births, and divorce) in the white community, you'll see the same thing start to bear out. Just a hunch: black people committing just shy of 50% of the nation's violent crime didn't happen in the 50s, when the black community had an incredibly strong family culture**. Give it a generation or two in the white community, and we could see the same thing happening.

* That said: if gangs can reach as far as Panola County, Mississippi, I would assume that they can reach pretty much anywhere - and the urban/rural distinction will matter less and less.

** The destruction of which is something else for which we can thank progressive ideology and policy

I think you are correct.

 

[dusty88]

Agree chip. Well-intentioned entitlements have made people less dependent on family. It's not just the single-parent funding. You now have funding to (cough) allow Grandma to spend her final years in a nursing home. More to the point, you probably can't afford to take care of her at home. Putting your 15% into Social Security and Medicare wasn't optional. It wasn't an option to keep it at home and have several generations living in the house. The government knows better.

 

[printcraft]

While his language is certainly racial in nature. He never condoned or incited violence. ..........Now, Sharpton isn't close to holding the jockstrap to either one of those guys, but as I said, although he is an attention-seeking blowhard, I haven't seen him rally people to commit crimes or hurt other people.

The biggest threat facing Sharpton and his ilk is Obama and what his election signifies.

Sharpton's (lump jesse jackson in here too) entire livelihood is base on divisiveness.
I would bet that his reaction on election night was not "hallelujah" but more of "oh ****, I'm out of a job."
It's no wonder that the good Rev. has stepped up his rhetoric over the years.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I guess that's why I don't have time to protest, or counter-protest, or dive into the fever swamp on Twitter: I'm spending my time working, and doing what I can to raise my girls properly.

I have this theory that World War II was a cultural turning point in our society, in that it cost the lives of so many fathers, who then were not around to help raise their children and pass on their values and character to those children. (Children need *both* parents, and are at a disadvantage in a single-parent home, whether that home is a single mother or a single father.) A generation of kids raised without the influence of the fathers of the Greatest Generation thus became the cultural disaster that was the 60s, and it only went downhill from there.

I think the root cause of problems in the black community has nothing to do with skin color or poverty, and everything to do with the breakdown of the family, and the lack of influence of fathers in the lives of their children.

My wife and I feel strongly enough about the issue that we have seriously discussed adopting, since we are done producing kids on our own. It's the kind of "if it saves the life of just one child" that I can get behind.

So, what's the root cause of problems in the white community?

If the breakdown has anything to do with the problems we all see and recognize, I would suggest it, in and of itself is not a cause but another symptom. I know some of you guys are engineers. As engineers, you are familiar with problems solving and problem solving techniques. Is the family breakdown really the root cause? Or can you ask more "why" questions and drill even deeper. For example "why are the families breaking down?" If you say, as one poster suggested, it is because of government handouts, then why would folks taking food stamps or WIC or whatever be drawn into such family structures? Why are people becoming more inclined to seek out and sign up for such handouts? There are probably many ways you could take this troubleshooting tree but I'm not sure there is more than one or 2 legitimate root causes...and one of which, I would lean upon, can't be discussed here, on this forum.

 

[churchmouse]

If the breakdown has anything to do with the problems we all see and recognize, I would suggest it, in and of itself is not a cause but another symptom. I know some of you guys are engineers. As engineers, you are familiar with problems solving and problem solving techniques. Is the family breakdown really the root cause? Or can you ask more "why" questions and drill even deeper. For example "why are the families breaking down?" If you say, as one poster suggested, it is because of government handouts, then why would folks taking food stamps or WIC or whatever be drawn into such family structures? Why are people becoming more inclined to seek out and sign up for such handouts? There are probably many ways you could take this troubleshooting tree but I'm not sure there is more than one or 2 legitimate root causes.

I will use the "Baby" Moma culture as an example. 5 or 6 baby moma's drawing a check helps fund a lifestyle.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I will use the "Baby" Moma culture as an example. 5 or 6 baby moma's drawing a check helps fund a lifestyle.

There's a troubleshooting technique called the "5 Whys" that they use at my plant to help folks get to the real root cause of problems. When done honestly and rigorously, the teachers of this process state that you'll usually arrive at the crux of your problem within 5 "why" questions. It doesn't always take all 5 questions to get there but they say after no more than those 5, if you approached it earnestly, you have gotten to the point.

Que is attacking near what I would consider the root of the problem with his program. Getting people to realize the course of action they take is really up to them...no matter what outside influences one experiences...is certainly a good point to drive home. Going after people that might be willing to listen and receive the message is certainly a sound strategy because until a person is ready to make a change, no amount of training, preaching, knocking-heads-together, etc. will work.

 

[churchmouse]

There's a troubleshooting technique called the "5 Whys" that they use at my plant to help folks get to the real root cause of problems. When done honestly and rigorously, the teachers of this process state that you'll usually arrive at the crux of your problem within 5 "why" questions. It doesn't always take all 5 questions to get there but they say after no more than those 5, if you approached it earnestly, you have gotten to the point.

Que is attacking near what I would consider the root of the problem with his program. Getting people to realize the course of action they take is really up to them...no matter what outside influences one experiences...is certainly a good point to drive home. Going after people that might be willing to listen and receive the message is certainly a sound strategy because until a person is ready to make a change, no amount of training, preaching, knocking-heads-together, etc. will work.

Yes, his approach will show results. The baby moma culture I speak of is in place and operating as a way of life well below where "Q" is doing his good work. That is the area of society (no color boundary's, it is across the board) that is the basic make up for generating more and more future gang members. This is a well entrenched life style that will not be turned without drastic actions.