17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[g+16]

my question is why is their no outrage when both men are of the same race, just saying men and women across the country kill each other everyday, but the only time you have marchs is when it's one race killing another, before I get a lot of hate mail or what ever, I am just a simply old man who is amazed by the amount of people who can take the time out of their day for a march for someone they did'nt know. All death by any means is regreatable, but what you have to remember is the simple statement of I feared for my life. mods delete this if you wish

 

[strahd71]

my question is why is their no outrage when both men are of the same race, just saying men and women across the country kill each other everyday, but the only time you have marchs is when it's one race killing another, before I get a lot of hate mail or what ever, I am just a simply old man who is amazed by the amount of people who can take the time out of their day for a march for someone they did'nt know. All death by any means is regreatable, but what you have to remember is the simple statement of I feared for my life. mods delete this if you wish

white on white, black on black, brown on brown crime isnt as exciting to discuss on the internet and doesnt allow certain groups to rant and rave act like fools and be victims

jake

 

[dross]

If it's black on black crime, there's no chance to grab power.

Just like the Klan used fear of black men raping white women to gain power after the Civil War.

Power politics. Race is just a tactic. Long, long before the internets.

 

[figley]

Why don't we decide not to dignify the race-baiters' tactics, and leave the issue where it belongs, which is out of this discussion?

 

[strahd71]

Why don't we decide not to dignify the race-baiters' tactics, and leave the issue where it belongs, which is out of this discussion?

while i agree i'm not sure its realistic considering that the media and others have made it racial. to ignore it at this point would be like ignoring the elephant in the room.

i do agree it's distasteful business!

jake

 

[Kutnupe14]

my question is why is their no outrage when both men are of the same race, just saying men and women across the country kill each other everyday, but the only time you have marchs is when it's one race killing another, before I get a lot of hate mail or what ever, I am just a simply old man who is amazed by the amount of people who can take the time out of their day for a march for someone they did'nt know. All death by any means is regreatable, but what you have to remember is the simple statement of I feared for my life. mods delete this if you wish

To be fair with the entire situation, and admittedly there is this racial nonsense being associated with it, there is also the issue that a juvenile was killed by an adult. That in itself will open more eyes than not.

 

[CarmelHP]

To be fair with the entire situation, and admittedly there is this racial nonsense being associated with it, there is also the issue that a juvenile was killed by an adult. That in itself will open more eyes than not.

So? If he was a few months older, what then? Just because we infantilize a full grown man because he's under an arbitrarily set age doesn't make him innocent any more than being above 18 makes Zimmerman guilty.

 

[griffin]

Screams on 911 call not George Zimmerman, forensic voice experts say - Crimesider - CBS News

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

Hmmm...

The Self-Refuting Expert Witness The Orlando Sentinel Is Touting

Back on the Trayvon Martin killing, audio expert Tom Owen is getting good press with his claim (broken by the Orlando Sentinel) that it is not George Zimmerman heard screaming for help on a 911 call. Here are CBS, CNN, MSNBC, Mediaite and the Boston Herald.

I squawked that other experts would question that conclusion - a good forensic audio match requires examples of speech similar to the sounds being compared. So using George Zimmerman's spoken voice on his 911 call and comparing that to the screams heard in the background of a second 911 call would be a no-no.

Interestingly, in describing his techniques at his website, we see that Tom Owen agrees (my emphasis):

The examiner can only work with speech samples which are the same as the text of the unknown recording. Under the best of circumstances the suspects will repeat, several times, the text of the recording of the unknown speaker and these words will be recorded in a similar manner to the recording of the unknown speaker. For example, if the recording of the unknown speaker was a bomb threat made to a recorded telephone line then each of the suspects would repeat the threat, word for word, to a recorded telephone line. This will provide the examiner with not only the same speech sounds for comparison but also with valuable information about the way each speech sound completes the transition to the next sound.

There are those times when a voice sample must be obtained without the knowledge of the suspect. It is possible to make an identification from a surreptitious recording but the amount of speech necessary to do the comparison is usually much greater. If the suspect is being engaged in conversation for the purpose of obtaining a voice sample, the conversation must be manipulated in such a way so as to have the suspect repeat as many of the words and phrases found in the text of the unknown recording as possible.

The worst exemplar recordings with which an examiner must work are those of random speech. It is necessary to obtain a large sample of speech to improve the chances of obtaining a sufficient amount of comparable speech.

And this is the man who now claims that a few seconds of background screaming can be matched to calmly spoken words.

Well, if the prosecutor loses his mind and waves Mr. Owen up as an expert witness in the trial of George Zimmerman, the defense will ask him to re-read this material from his own website, then ask the judge to dismiss him. Good luck to the prosecutor.

I have no doubt that the investigators have already received this advice, so let's not hold our collective breath waiting for the audio deus ex machina. This testimony won't be credible and may not even be admissible.

As to why Mr. Owen is sticking his neck out, well, he may be civic minded. But he rolled out his new voice recognition software on March 1, so he also may welcome the publicity.

I figure the media mavens that are starting to play catch-up will catch up to this by May. Is is asking to much to expect them to review his website and ask a few basic questions, such as, why does your website say this Zimmerman match can't be done? Oh, why ask why.

HMM: In an Addendum Jacob Sullum wonders whether the dubious audio evidence, presumably in a larger context, would be allowed to help establish probable cause for arrest even if it had little chance of being admissible at trial. Over to the lawyers!

For a lighter look, from 'someguy' in the comments, I am stealing a quick Frequently Unasked Questions about Tom Owen. Imagine this as a trial cross-examination, because the prosecutor may be having nightmares about just this:

Q:Tom Owen. Is he really a "forensics expert?"
A:Well, no. He has a B.A. in History, not forensics.

Q: Well, surely since he's an expert, he went to Harvard or Yale or Oxford, right?
A: Well, no he went to Bellarmine College in Kentucky. You've heard of Bellarmine College, right?

Q: Well, but surely he's worked for the FBI or CIA as a forensics examiner?
A: No, but he did work for the New York Public Library in charge of their Rogers and Hammerstein archive.

Q: But surely he's written some books about forensics that the FBI and CIA use, right?
A: No, but he has written extensively about the banjo and did a coloring book:

• Tom Owen, Scaling the Fretboard (Chappell Music 1973)
• Tom Owen, The Chord Coloring Book (Chappell Music 1974)
• Tom Owen, Tenor Banjo (Chappell Music 1975)
• Tom Owen, Lead Guitar (Chappell Music 1976)
• Tom Owen, The Classic Blues Singers (Chappell Music 1977)

Q: What about his wife Jennifer Owen ... surely she's a hotshot FBI forensics examiner, right?
A: No, she makes Powerpoint presentations and is a secretary with a political science degree, not a forensics degree.

Q: But surely they have an advanced forensic acoustics laboratory where they conduct their forensic analysis right?
A: No, they just have a computer in the basement of their house in New Jersey right next to the railroad tracks.

Q: But surely he's a member of the American Board of Recorded Evidence?
A: Yes, but he and his wife run the Board. He's the chairman, and she's a board member. The Board is run out of a weight-loss clinic in Springfield, Missouri along with a bunch of other dubious "boards," "colleges" and "Institutes."

• American Board for Certification in Homeland Security‎ - Address: 2750 East Sunshine St. Springfield, MO
• American Association for Integrative Medicine Inc - Address: 2750 East Sunshine St. Springfield, MO
• American College of Forensic‎ Examiners International - Address: 2750 East Sunshine St. Springfield, MOC
• College of Wellness - Address: 2750 East Sunshine St. Springfield, MO
• American Psychotherapy Association - Address: 2750 East Sunshine St. Springfield, MO

There are no colleges or real boards here. There's a fat farm weight loss clinic at that location. They appear to have certified themselves experts by running this board themselves.

Now, let's examine the software they used to perform their analysis. How good is it?

Well, given two KNOWN samples of speech by President Richard M. Nixon, the software only matched two recordings to a 86% match.

Remember, Mr. Owen said he'd expect a 90% match before he concluded that the voices were identical. Although when he's testifying in murder cases, he claims a 68% match is enough to send someone to prison for the rest of their life (CT v Sheila Davalloo). Even in the software makers own demonstration of the product, using two KNOWN samples of speech from the same famous person, there was only an 86% match.

What about the algorithm they're using to make the comparison? How good is it? UNKNOWN. That's proprietary. They won't tell you what they're actually measuring.

I am leaving that up there for folks to check over (and it was left on April 1), but if it is even mostly right, this guy won't be taking the stand in The People versus Zimmerman.

I did note yesterday that Mr. Owen is rolling out their new product as of March 1, 2012, so he welcomes the publicity.

 

[jedi]

Somewhere in these 35 pages someone posted a PDF from the SPD which was an FAQ (i think) saying why they did not arrest Z, and the varuious things they had done, etc.. Does anyone still have that link?

Thanks!

Also I've read here that Z volunteered his time to help black kids but I can't find that elsewhere (online) any links to that?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Destroying the Narrative:

Quote of the Day: Narrative Destroying Edition | The Truth About Guns

 

[Kutnupe14]

So? If he was a few months older, what then? Just because we infantilize a full grown man because he's under an arbitrarily set age doesn't make him innocent any more than being above 18 makes Zimmerman guilty.

"IF" he was a few months older, then it would be "adult vs adult." But I'll be clear a 10 year old can kill you just as dead as a 40 year old, however the 17 year old kids still think like kids, and most people know it.

 

[griffin]

Somewhere in these 35 pages someone posted a PDF from the SPD which was an FAQ (i think) saying why they did not arrest Z, and the varuious things they had done, etc.. Does anyone still have that link?

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Also, just go to the Sanford website for the things "officially" released, including 911 calls, police station video, etc.

City of Sanford Florida

Also I've read here that Z volunteered his time to help black kids but I can't find that elsewhere (online) any links to that?

Yes, he did that. He also raised money for an African American church. Some of the early news stories had that info from the people he helped, but that doesn't really fit into the whole "being a racist and targeting blacks" narrative that Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, NBPP, Eric Holder, and others are propagating.

 

[griffin]

Black Men Named Trayvon Get Killed all the Time, But The Left Doesn't Care

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUAFGqwiJY[/ame]

 

[blamecharles]

Destroying the Narrative:

Quote of the Day: Narrative Destroying Edition | The Truth About Guns

Thank you for that Kirk. This is the real injustice here, the fact that our Media is just trying to stir up trouble.

 

[blamecharles]

Black Men Named Trayvon Get Killed all the Time, But The Left Doesn't Care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUAFGqwiJY

And thank you Griffin for this video it will be spread as far as i can send it.

 

[cexshun]

Black Men Named Trayvon Get Killed all the Time, But The Left Doesn't Care

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUAFGqwiJY

Wow. This was very VERY good.

 

[popeye]

Trayvon Martin police report reveals Zimmerman was

The End

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

"IF" he was a few months older, then it would be "adult vs adult." But I'll be clear a 10 year old can kill you just as dead as a 40 year old, however the 17 year old kids still think like kids, and most people know it.

If you make grown up decisions you get grown up results and have to live (or not) with the grown up consequences.

This should be a lesson for everyone, young or old, black or white. Don't put your hands on anyone else. The circusmstances can be permanent.

 

[griffin]

Trayvon Martin police report reveals Zimmerman was

What is it with some people? (Not you, popeye, but writers of news articles). The yahoo news article states:

4/3/2012 A partially redacted police report detailing the initial investigation in the Feb. 26 shooting death of Trayvon Martin has surfaced.

He quotes someone else:

4/3/2012 Just in: Read the redacted police report from the night Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman

Just in? Has just surfaced? WTF? The police released that a long time ago! It's been right on the freakin' Sanford website for weeks!

This isn't the first news report like this. Every couple of days someone posts this "breaking news" that the police have "just released" the police report.

No they haven't. It's been available! And they don't even link the original Sanford site where that and everything else is.

City of Sanford Florida



Real breaking news would be the final investigation report. That hasn't been officially released, although some parts have been leaked to the press.

/rant

I feel better now.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If you make grown up decisions you get grown up results and have to live (or not) with the grown up consequences.

This should be a lesson for everyone, young or old, black or white. Don't put your hands on anyone else. The circusmstances can be permanent.

Very well said! I cannot expect anyone (presuming for the sake of the point that Zimmerman's story is approximately what happened) to care about a few months of age when having the dogs**t beaten out of him.